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OfflineMalachi
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Registered: 06/19/02
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Last seen: 7 years, 6 months
can there be free will in a material world? * 1
    #2129432 - 11/22/03 07:40 PM (13 years, 22 days ago)

what are some arguments for materialism not being determined?


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,849
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Re: can there be free will in a material world? [Re: Malachi]
    #2129476 - 11/22/03 08:36 PM (13 years, 22 days ago)

Can't think of any, but I just thought I would say welcome back. :grin:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflinePhluck
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Registered: 04/11/99
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Re: can there be free will in a material world? [Re: Malachi]
    #2129484 - 11/22/03 08:42 PM (13 years, 22 days ago)

I think you'll have to clarify that question.

Do you mean, do people have a choice about whether they desire material things?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: can there be free will in a material world? [Re: Phluck]
    #2129489 - 11/22/03 08:44 PM (13 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Phluck said:
Do you mean, do people have a choice about whether they desire material things?




If that's the question, then I think we do have a choice.
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineMixomatosis
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Registered: 10/28/03
Posts: 1,306
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Re: can there be free will in a material world? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2129494 - 11/22/03 08:50 PM (13 years, 22 days ago)

*boring alert


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: can there be free will in a material world? [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2129501 - 11/22/03 08:54 PM (13 years, 22 days ago)

omfg ur so hilarious.

Dude, you're going to get banned. Quit being a fag.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,849
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Re: can there be free will in a material world? [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2129510 - 11/22/03 08:59 PM (13 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Mixomatosis said:
*boring alert




I'll be damned if that loud thing doesn't go off everytime you enter a thread. It definitely wakes up the cat and blows the speakers...
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Anonymous

Re: can there be free will in a material world? [Re: Phluck]
    #2129539 - 11/22/03 09:13 PM (13 years, 22 days ago)

whether they desire material things?

not that kind of materialism...

Materialism: 1 a : a theory that physical matter is the only or fundamental reality and that all being and processes and phenomena can be explained as manifestations or results of matter.


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OfflineSpecialEd
+ one

Registered: 01/30/03
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Re: can there be free will in a material world? [Re: ]
    #2129709 - 11/22/03 11:27 PM (13 years, 22 days ago)

do you mean to ask if people are forced to buy things. maybe, but if something wasn't good or didn't do something, people wouldn't buy it.

you can rant and rave about how coke puts it's machines in schools and children are forced to purchase it, but if coke wasn't good, kids wouldn't buy it.


--------------------
"Plus one upvote +1..."
--- //
-- :meff:
  /l_l\/
--\-/----


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OfflineEarth_Droid
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Re: can there be free will in a material world? [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2129711 - 11/22/03 11:28 PM (13 years, 22 days ago)

Why do people always have to refer to the world as material or spiritual. I prefer not to differientiate between the two.


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OfflineSpecialEd
+ one

Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 6,220
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Re: can there be free will in a material world? [Re: Earth_Droid]
    #2129719 - 11/22/03 11:34 PM (13 years, 22 days ago)

earth droid, you cannot frequent this board if you are not divisive, now which side of the fence are you on?


--------------------
"Plus one upvote +1..."
--- //
-- :meff:
  /l_l\/
--\-/----


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Invisibleadrug

Registered: 02/04/03
Posts: 15,800
Re: can there be free will in a material world? [Re: Malachi]
    #2129745 - 11/23/03 12:06 AM (13 years, 22 days ago)

"Can there be free will in a material world?"

Good question. I don't think there can. I was talking with a friend  last night about the sixth extinction theory (thanks trendal :smile:), telling him I read an article where they quoted several biologists as saying that up to 90% of the plant and animal population on earth could be wiped out in the next 100 years due to human expansion and consumption. We both agreed that we probably could stop this from happening if us humans were all on the same page. But when the people in dark smoky rooms have their own self-serving agendas, me recycling my popcans doesn't seem to be having much of an effect. I would love to be able to have access to more energy efficient types of transportation and power, but the accessibility and practicality of these things is beyond my means. As long as the people running the show are involved with corporations, nothing will change. It makes me feel kind of guilty to be a human being.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 19,380
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Re: can there be free will in a material world? [Re: adrug]
    #2129752 - 11/23/03 12:13 AM (13 years, 22 days ago)

It makes me feel kind of guilty to be a human being.

Guilty of being born, eh?


Do we have a choice? Yes...
Are there repercussions...most definately...


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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OfflineMixomatosis
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Registered: 10/28/03
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Re: can there be free will in a material world? [Re: trendal]
    #2129775 - 11/23/03 12:40 AM (13 years, 22 days ago)

hehe this is funny.



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Offlinemonoamine
umask 077(nonefor you)

Registered: 09/07/02
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Re: can there be free will in a material world? [Re: ]
    #2129804 - 11/23/03 01:18 AM (13 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Materialism: 1 a : a theory that physical matter is the only or fundamental reality and that all being and processes and phenomena can be explained as manifestations or results of matter.





I believed our little friend quantum mechanics destroyed that about 70 years ago,which is pretty ironic considering it was derived from materialism and mathematical determinism.

If I totally missed the mark,I have no idea WTF the original question meant...


--------------------
People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams


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OfflineZenGecko
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Registered: 11/02/03
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Re: can there be free will in a material world? [Re: monoamine]
    #2129827 - 11/23/03 01:43 AM (13 years, 22 days ago)

indeterminism simply means that there is an element of randomness. Randomness is not enough for free will, because you cant exercise your will over randomness. The ideas of freedom, and choice are delusions in the context that they are usually used. Conceptions based on perceptual illusions. See Big questions (thoughts on free will) post for a detailed, logically self constent proof why free will doesn't exist.
Sincerely,
That which is, and has no choice but to be


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Anonymous

Re: can there be free will in a material world? [Re: monoamine]
    #2130191 - 11/23/03 10:21 AM (13 years, 21 days ago)

I believed our little friend quantum mechanics destroyed that about 70 years ago,which is pretty ironic considering it was derived from materialism and mathematical determinism.

nah, quantum mechanics is entirely consistent with materialism... the definition should say energy too, and not just matter.


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OfflineMalachi
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Registered: 06/19/02
Posts: 1,294
Loc: Around Minneapolis.
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Re: can there be free will in a material world? [Re: monoamine]
    #2130921 - 11/23/03 07:56 PM (13 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

monoamine said:
Quote:

Materialism: 1 a : a theory that physical matter is the only or fundamental reality and that all being and processes and phenomena can be explained as manifestations or results of matter.





I believed our little friend quantum mechanics destroyed that about 70 years ago,which is pretty ironic considering it was derived from materialism and mathematical determinism.

If I totally missed the mark,I have no idea WTF the original question meant...




as I understand it, our "little friend" tells us that in the subatomic context matter seems to cease being determined - some kind of spontaneity exists. and yet in the context that we live in, material seems to imply determined - without a "cause" behind the bouncing physical forces of your neurons, it's quite hard to imagine a "I" that is choosing to control "my" body. if everything's material, it's all just a series of chemical reactions, thought is a byproduct (think stink lines coming out of your head) of by brain.

so it's a somewhat accepted notion in philosophy that to have free will, one must assume the existence of an immaterial mind. now, this immaterial mind might be a cartesian one, split from the body (material), or you can go towards a conception of everything being an immaterial- idealism. some positions simply bracket the question, like phenomenologists. you can also look at everything as being in different worlds - pluralism - or you can call everything the same, neither ideal or material, but neutral, a kind of monism.

so anyway... yeah, this isn't about consumerism (not that I don't value the green meme.. in fact, I'm organizing buy nothing day activities in my school and local mall.) it's about philosophy.

so I want to hear from some materialists (traditional or otherwise) on how they can find fulfillment or gratification... or how you can hope to train your body or ignore/control bodily reactions (like exertion, art forms, etc) if there is no immaterial mind to influence the material.


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


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OfflineMalachi
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Registered: 06/19/02
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Re: can there be free will in a material world? [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2130936 - 11/23/03 08:01 PM (13 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

ZenGecko said:
indeterminism simply means that there is an element of randomness. Randomness is not enough for free will, because you cant exercise your will over randomness. The ideas of freedom, and choice are delusions in the context that they are usually used. Conceptions based on perceptual illusions. See Big questions (thoughts on free will) post for a detailed, logically self constent proof why free will doesn't exist.
Sincerely,
That which is, and has no choice but to be




indeterminacy, it is true, isn't sufficient for free will, but it is requisite.
if there's no free will how can you be aware of the lack thereof?
"oh, I see, I'm a machine!"


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


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OfflineMalachi
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Re: can there be free will in a material world? [Re: ]
    #2130942 - 11/23/03 08:06 PM (13 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
I believed our little friend quantum mechanics destroyed that about 70 years ago,which is pretty ironic considering it was derived from materialism and mathematical determinism.

nah, quantum mechanics is entirely consistent with materialism... the definition should say energy too, and not just matter.




if quantum mechanics are consistent with materialism, then materialism isn't determined.... and what the fuck does that mean? it sure seems determined... every time I flush my toilet, it goes the same way... it's generally the people who do the unforeseeable.

hey, this reminds me of asimov's idea about a Logos-wannabe of psychology/history/math. he didn't want that though, so he made it fallible in the end.



--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


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