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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Conspiracy Theories: JFK vs. 9/11
    #2129289 - 11/22/03 05:10 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Not really a good title for the thread...

Anyway, both actions have been blamed by different ppl on the US govt, possibly acting at the behest of a nebulous entity variously called the "shadow govt", "ruling class", "financial oligarchy", etc., etc. And none of these conspiracy theories around JFK nor 9/11 has enough evidence to win a court case (the fact that the perpetrators own the courts notwidthstanding).

Nonetheless, my impression (which may be wrong) is that ppl continue to fault the US govt for its alleged role in killing JFK; but OTOH, the reaction to 9/11 has been the exact opposite. Granted, there has not been nearly as much time to collect as much evidence in the case of 9/11 as JFK (when that is taken into account, there is prolly an equal weight of evidence). But it escapes me how anyone could exclude the possibility altogether. And from what ppl have told me, they dont. There are many ppl (like my crazy uncle in CA) that think: yes, the junta was responsible for 9/11, but they had to do it in order to "keep the slackers in line"(tm)".

My guess is that this same crowd might not have cared much for JFK; but neither did they find it necessary to kill him so that shadows could do their job (which is making the rich richer and the poor poorer). However, they would also agree that *much* more violence had become necessary by 9/11. The level of esteem that middle America holds for the shadows is at the very least appalling and repulsive.

So im asking you for your thoughts, comments, etc. as to why ppl have taken opposite views as to the morality of the govts actions in JFK vs. 9/11. Thx.


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Offlinejoeshitragpicker
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Re: Conspiracy Theories: JFK vs. 9/11 [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2129297 - 11/22/03 05:14 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)



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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Conspiracy Theories: JFK vs. 9/11 [Re: joeshitragpicker]
    #2129428 - 11/22/03 07:33 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Different conspiracies get different buffs.

WTC conspirists are often not American.


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InvisibleXochitl
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Re: Conspiracy Theories: JFK vs. 9/11 [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2129491 - 11/22/03 08:46 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Anyway, both actions have been blamed by different ppl on the US govt, possibly acting at the behest of a nebulous entity variously called the "shadow govt", "ruling class", "financial oligarchy", etc., etc.




In the case of the Kennedy assassination, when researchers discuss the probable involvment of the CIA or some other nebulous entities they do not necessarily mean the entire federal organization, rather a handful of men who have the motive and means to carry out and then cover up such an action. Competent researchers and theorists are quite specific as to who might have been involved in the murder; there are plenty of names and faces that go along with their theories. Those who say the shadow government killed Kennedy without any specific information further than well, it was the CIA are most likely individuals whom do not have much knowledge or research under their belt to state such opinion. Crack open a decent assassination book or attend a university lecture on the subject, and you will hear plenty of names.

Quote:

And none of these conspiracy theories around JFK nor 9/11 has enough evidence to win a court case (the fact that the perpetrators own the courts notwidthstanding).




What theories are you referring to, specifically? Have you honestly hammered out the research in order to come to the conclusion that a trial in regards to the Kennedy assassination would not prove fruitful? If no trial would be possible, then why did the federal authorities lock away particular evidence, documents, and testimony records until 2028 so that all individuals that may be affected by such information release would be sure to be long dead?

Quote:

Nonetheless, my impression (which may be wrong) is that ppl continue to fault the US govt for its alleged role in killing JFK; but OTOH, the reaction to 9/11 has been the exact opposite. Granted, there has not been nearly as much time to collect as much evidence in the case of 9/11 as JFK (when that is taken into account, there is prolly an equal weight of evidence).




I think people have their doubts of the official Warren Commission line due to unanswered questions and evidence to the contrary. Couple these elements with the long history of covert, unscrupulous black operations activity on the part of the federal authorities and the seeds of doubt grow.

The material I have read about a September 11th conspiracy seems uncorroborated and are often facets of far fetched agenda on the part of the theorists (i.e. David Icke and his reptilian shapeshifter NWO), and I cannot fully comment on these theories because I am not all that familiar with them.

Quote:

My guess is that this same crowd might not have cared much for JFK; but neither did they find it necessary to kill him so that shadows could do their job (which is making the rich richer and the poor poorer).




Who are the people who make up the shadows? And why is their job making the rich richer and the poor poorer? Please be specific.


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As we know, there are known knowns. There are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns. That is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don't know we don't know.

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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Conspiracy Theories: JFK vs. 9/11 [Re: Xochitl]
    #2129566 - 11/22/03 09:28 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

hey, I already started this thread a long time ago!

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat...ue#Post19276777

Posuer!


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: Conspiracy Theories: JFK vs. 9/11 [Re: Xochitl]
    #2129841 - 11/23/03 01:59 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

What theories are you referring to, specifically? Have you honestly hammered out the research in order to come to the conclusion that a trial in regards to the Kennedy assassination would not prove fruitful? If no trial would be possible, then why did the federal authorities lock away particular evidence, documents, and testimony records until 2028 so that all individuals that may be affected by such information release would be sure to be long dead?




First of all, there has been a trial in regards to JFK that didnt prove fruitful (Oliver Stone). Second of all, the suspicious behaviour of the govt in hiding documents, etc. in the JFK assassination mirrors that of the junta refusing to turn over documents pertaining to 9/11 to congressional investigators, along with other interference. And in neither case does it "prove" anything.

Quote:

I think people have their doubts of the official Warren Commission line due to unanswered questions and evidence to the contrary. Couple these elements with the long history of covert, unscrupulous black operations activity on the part of the federal authorities and the seeds of doubt grow.

The material I have read about a September 11th conspiracy seems uncorroborated and are often facets of far fetched agenda on the part of the theorists (i.e. David Icke and his reptilian shapeshifter NWO), and I cannot fully comment on these theories because I am not all that familiar with them.




This goes back to what i said that there is more evidence in the case of JFK simply because there has been more time to collect it. And dont use the reptillian shapeshifter crap as an example of all 9/11 conspiracy theories either. Most of them center around the Reichstag fire model, which is much more believable than reptillian shapeshifters. And the junta's website is actually pretty self-incriminating (not surprising considering their overall arrogance), especially p63 of Rebuilding America's Defenses.

Quote:

Who are the people who make up the shadows? And why is their job making the rich richer and the poor poorer? Please be specific.




Tonite is your lucky nite. The shadows are no longer shadows. Before the junta, it was called the "shadow govt" precisely because it was impossible to give a specific answer as to who they were: a presumed consortium of a handful of wealthy corporations represented by the elites that ran them, which serves the same role in US politics as the Soviet Central Comittee or the Iranian Guardian Council. And it its very apparent that they are only interested in pursuing power as an end to itself; hence their job is to make the rich (themselves) richer and the poor (everyone else) poorer.


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InvisibleXochitl
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Re: Conspiracy Theories: JFK vs. 9/11 [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2129978 - 11/23/03 04:01 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I understand the motives of the PNAC and its globalist agenda, but I require more corroborated information and evidence than what seems to be presented so far, especially considering the magnitude of a September 11th conspiracy. One question: if more time is necessary for information to be uncovered and matured, then how did you personally develop your strong belief in such a conspiracy? Can you spell out the case for conspiracy and provide referrences? Please leave out uncorroborated information and heresay (i.e. Willie Brown was told not to fly to NYC according to a single inside source). If these theories are to move out of the dark, there needs to be structure and solid evidence and data. Not internet rumors. If you can produce such an outline and referrence (or direct me to solid resource), I would appreciate it :thumbup: 

Thanks. 


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As we know, there are known knowns. There are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns. That is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don't know we don't know.

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InvisibleDatDaNK420
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Re: Conspiracy Theories: JFK vs. 9/11 [Re: Xochitl]
    #2129993 - 11/23/03 04:11 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

My father tells me he knows its a conspiracy and that the CIA setup the killing of JFK. He says there was a bullet hole in the window of the car and ford fixed it the same day, and the paperwork from them doing it magically dissapeared. I dont know how much truth is around it but thats why these things are called conspiracies.


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: Conspiracy Theories: JFK vs. 9/11 [Re: Xochitl]
    #2130021 - 11/23/03 05:03 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

There was never much evidence that Hitler torched the Reichstag either (pls read the link again). And if the junta didnt 9/11 us, then it really was that Marius guy... :grin:

But seriously..Personally, if i had lived in the mid 1960s, i would have been as adamant about the govts role in JFKs death then as i am about the junta's role in 9/11 now -- with as little evidence to back it up.

Unfortunately, i cant produce a smoking gun for 9/11; we'll just have to wait 40 years to see how it evolves -- and thats in the unlikely event that our society doesnt (much sooner) become too closed off to allow that (which would actually be evidence in and of itself). But in the meantime, all i have is a cartoon...



       


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Conspiracy Theories: JFK vs. 9/11 [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2130323 - 11/23/03 12:30 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Thanks for the cartoon.

Surely, it will stand the test of time as proof of Hitler's involvement in 9-11.


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Invisiblez@z.com
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Re: Conspiracy Theories: JFK vs. 9/11 [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2130334 - 11/23/03 12:40 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Annapurna1 said:
with as little evidence to back it up.



That about sums up why it is difficult to take conspiracy theorists seriously. That and the constant comparisons of Bush to Hitler.


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Offlinest0nedphucker
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Re: Conspiracy Theories: JFK vs. 9/11 [Re: Rose]
    #2130339 - 11/23/03 12:48 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

:lol: The fact the Nazi's blamed it on a retarded crippled communist supporter was slightly suspicious...

Btw for the UKers out there
Kennedy 40: Crime, Cover-up And Conspiracy - The Murder of John F Kennedy - Tonight BBC2 21:00



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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Conspiracy Theories: JFK vs. 9/11 [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #2130351 - 11/23/03 12:58 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Doesn't that documentary use the "computer graphics" to prove Oswald did it alone?

I think i recognised Gerald Posner on a clip from it - he's one of the main supporters of the magic bullet theory.


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Conspiracy Theories: JFK vs. 9/11 [Re: Xlea321]
    #2130360 - 11/23/03 01:06 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

The ABC Documentary destroyed the magic bullet theory.

It was the documentary with the computer graphics.

http://abcnews.go.com/jfk_conspiracy/jfk_conspiracy_index.html


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Conspiracy Theories: JFK vs. 9/11 [Re: Rose]
    #2130367 - 11/23/03 01:12 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Ah, that'll probably be the one Cervantes. I'll let you know. Just thought I recognised Gerald Posner - never a good sign  :smile2:


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Conspiracy Theories: JFK vs. 9/11 [Re: Xlea321]
    #2130370 - 11/23/03 01:16 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

The truth is out there.


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: Conspiracy Theories: JFK vs. 9/11 [Re: Rose]
    #2130372 - 11/23/03 01:18 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Cervantes said:
The ABC Documentary destroyed the magic bullet theory.

It was the documentary with the computer graphics.

http://abcnews.go.com/jfk_conspiracy/jfk_conspiracy_index.html




So...does that mean that i can prove anything i want to..if i can program the graphics into the computer?? :lol: 


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Re: Conspiracy Theories: JFK vs. 9/11 [Re: Xlea321]
    #2130373 - 11/23/03 01:18 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I'm not sure. Should be interesting though either way, it looks like the one Cervantes is reffering to.


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Conspiracy Theories: JFK vs. 9/11 [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2130515 - 11/23/03 02:54 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Annapurna1 said:
So...does that mean that i can prove anything i want to..if i can program the graphics into the computer?? :lol: 




Hardly.

What it means is the the governor's seat was six inches to the left of JFK's. JFK's seat was several inches higher.

The Warren Commission neglected to take this into account. The ABC computer animator used the correct figures.

The magic bullet theory is based on bad info. It assumes the Governor's seat was directly in front of Kennedy. It simply was not. If you use the actual Lincoln Convertable's blueprints, you see that those seats were staggered.

With those changes made, The governors injuries are directly lined up with the first shot to hit Kennedy. And where do you think is the only place that shot could've been taken? The Dallas, Texas Schoolbook Depository.

This PROVES where the magic bullet was shot from... and it explains why the Governor was hit in what would seem like an odd position... if the seats were right in front of one another.

The computer animation only serves as a way to watch the events from any angle possible. This helps triangulate where the shots could have come from.

The computer animation, for example, shows without a doubt, nobody could've hit the president on the right side of the head from the grassy knoll. Sure, you could've shot JFK from there but, you would've hit his left side.

Let the magic bullet theory go. It was an interesting theory but, it has been disproven.


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InvisibleXochitl
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Re: Conspiracy Theories: JFK vs. 9/11 [Re: Xlea321]
    #2130571 - 11/23/03 03:55 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Case Closed or Posner Exposed? - a wide collection of essays and other writing that debunks the manufactured testimony and evidence of Gerald Posner (who is nothing but a senational psuedo-journalist of the likings of Geraldo).

Hasty Judgment: A Reply To Gerald Posner -- Why The JFK Case Is Not Closed

The ABC special was pretty much Case Closed in a studio form (and Cased Closed is a revision of the Warren Commission). After reading his book, I realized how skilled Posner is with molding information to his liking. No wonder why he has found a cozy home at Disney News.


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As we know, there are known knowns. There are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns. That is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don't know we don't know.

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Re: Conspiracy Theories: JFK vs. 9/11 [Re: Xochitl]
    #2130905 - 11/23/03 07:47 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Oliver Stone is equally skilled. Hell, Garrison himself was good at molding info to his liking.

That doesn't change the fact that the "Magic bullet theory," has been disproven.


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InvisibleTrueBrode
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Re: Conspiracy Theories: JFK vs. 9/11 [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2132573 - 11/24/03 03:27 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

http://100777.com/node/view/30

Link for the video 911: The Road to Tyranny

Should at least make people question the mainstream media's portrayal of the 911 attacks.


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Re: Conspiracy Theories: JFK vs. 9/11 [Re: Rose]
    #2133245 - 11/24/03 08:43 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

It would have been possible for a government/military sharpshooter to shoot from a window next to Oswald and make him a patsy.


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Re: Conspiracy Theories: JFK vs. 9/11 [Re: monoamine]
    #2133324 - 11/24/03 09:25 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Infinately more possible than the magic bullet theory. But where's the evidence? Was THAT wondow even open?


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InvisibleXochitl
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Re: Conspiracy Theories: JFK vs. 9/11 [Re: Rose]
    #2133786 - 11/25/03 12:53 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

But where's the evidence?




There is evidence that there was someone else in the TSBD; there is a finger print found on the sniper's nest boxes that belonged to known assassin Mac Wallace. There is further damning evidence that Wallace was involved in the assassination, namely documents that describe monetary compensation for him and others for their roles as well as photographs and personal memos. These douments were from Edward Clark who reprented Lyndon B. Johnson as his attourney and handled most of the personal, business and political transactions including money laundering. This evidence was released recently by an associate attourney, Barr McClellan, who also was on the Johnson legal team and was also the personal attorney for Edward Clark himself.


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As we know, there are known knowns. There are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns. That is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don't know we don't know.

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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Conspiracy Theories: JFK vs. 9/11 [Re: Xochitl]
    #2133802 - 11/25/03 01:05 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Hate to be an asshole Xochiti but, some links would improve your case.

I do think it is possible others were involved. I just think it is more likely Lee was a lone gunman who made some lucky shots.

I think, in the age of communism, people had trouble accepting the simplicity of the plan that killed Kennedy.

Hell, he's more myth than man now. How could a lone gunman kill him?

Every big world event gets surrounded by conspiracy... it is very predictable. Paranoia drives conspiracys.


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InvisibleXochitl
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Re: Conspiracy Theories: JFK vs. 9/11 [Re: Rose]
    #2133949 - 11/25/03 02:15 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Hate to be an asshole Xochiti but, some links would improve your case.




You're not an asshole. I dont have any specific internet links, but check out the book Blood, Money & Power by LBJ attourney Barr McClellan.

Quote:

I think, in the age of communism, people had trouble accepting the simplicity of the plan that killed Kennedy. Hell, he's more myth than man now. How could a lone gunman kill him? Every big world event gets surrounded by conspiracy... it is very predictable. Paranoia drives conspiracys




I was born in the 1970s, long after the Kennedy administration, and I have no fear of the Soviet Union or communist expansion. How could I? The bulk of the Cold War was before my time. Despite Peter Jennings' psychobabble, I do not have any sort of emotional attachment to the Kennedy administration (I do not even support the Democratic Party - never have. ) nor do I have "trouble accepting simplicity". I wish there was a simple answer, but that is not the case with this assassination.

I think that the official story (and the single-gunman stories of Gerald Posner, etc) do not add up when all things are considered honestly. Power-hungry men will gather together and decide to secretly committ crimes and it happens all the time in this world. From studying the JFK case, I think there was only a handful of men who did just that (and made many mistakes, I must add). Nothing more, nothing less.

Main Entry: para?noia
Pronunciation: "par-&-'noi-&
Function: noun
Etymology: New Latin, from Greek, madness, from paranous demented, from para- + nous mind
Date: circa 1811
1 : a psychosis characterized by systematized delusions of persecution or grandeur usually without hallucinations
2 : a tendency on the part of an individual or group toward excessive or irrational suspiciousness and distrustfulness of others


I do not possess any sort of delusions of persecution or grandeur, nor do I have any tendency for excessive distrust of others. How is a simple interest in the Kennedy murder mystery considered paranoia if research is acquired rationally and without any underlying political agenda or excessive suspicion? I do not put any stock other "conspiracy theories" really.


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As we know, there are known knowns. There are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns. That is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don't know we don't know.

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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Conspiracy Theories: JFK vs. 9/11 [Re: Rose]
    #2134573 - 11/25/03 11:46 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

The ABC Documentary destroyed the magic bullet theory.

It was the documentary with the computer graphics.





Must be some other computer graphics - the computer graphics in this documentary proved the magic bullet "conclusively".

Also said the direction you move in after being hit by a bullet in no way indicates the direction the bullet came from.


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Conspiracy Theories: JFK vs. 9/11 [Re: Xochitl]
    #2134980 - 11/25/03 02:44 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

*I do not possess any sort of delusions of persecution or grandeur, nor do I have any tendency for excessive distrust of others. How is a simple interest in the Kennedy murder mystery considered paranoia if research is acquired rationally and without any underlying political agenda or excessive suspicion? I do not put any stock other "conspiracy theories" really.

Sorry you misunderstood me. I was talking about the 60's. They were a very paranoid time. The Cuban missile crisis had just happened. McCarthyism had just been disproven. At this time there was a HUGE comminist conspiricy based in parinoia.

I was not saying you were paraniod... although, now that I reread your post, I am begining to wonder.  :tongue:

There is no doubt, the USA was very paranoid during the Cold War. People were having nuclear bomb tests at school. It was a scary time... kind of like post Sept 11 America, except we weren't attacked. We were afraid of a nuclear attack.

A lone gunman attacked his own country, then a pissed off henchman killed the assassin.

Many of our parents bought into the conspiracy because they couldn't accept it.

Denial is the first stage of loss. It is a human condition. This, more than anything, fuels conspiracies. Watch for the next big event... like the next Sept 11 style attack and count the days before you hear your first conspiracy theory.

Conspiracy theories are often created before all the facts are in.


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Re: Conspiracy Theories: JFK vs. 9/11 [Re: Xlea321]
    #2135034 - 11/25/03 03:09 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
Quote:

The ABC Documentary destroyed the magic bullet theory.

It was the documentary with the computer graphics.





Must be some other computer graphics - the computer graphics in this documentary proved the magic bullet "conclusively".

Also said the direction you move in after being hit by a bullet in no way indicates the direction the bullet came from.




Notice I didn't say the computer graphics disproved the theory. I said the documentary WITH the computer graphics did. The ABC documentary took the "Magic" out of the magic bullet theory.

Again, I will say this. The Warren commission didn't use the car blueprints. It was assumed the Governor was sitting directly in front of Kennedy. He wasn't. His chair was six inches to the left and several inches lower than JFK's. This is a fact. this is how the seats were actually aranged. I know Oliver Stone's movie did not take this into account when they looked into the "Megic Bullet Theory."

When you take this fact into account, the magic bullet becomes a regular bullet... and it was shot from the Texas schoolbook depository.

Computer graphics are not a bad thing. Graphics alone don't prove much.... but the correct measurements used in the computer graphics do.

Here's the link again.

http://abcnews.go.com/jfk_conspiracy/jfk_conspiracy_index.html


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Re: Conspiracy Theories: JFK vs. 9/11 [Re: Rose]
    #2135362 - 11/25/03 05:37 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Nellie Connally Disputes Warren Commission

For all the coverage generated by the 40th anniversary of the Kennedy assassination this past weekend, the media managed to miss the only genuine news to emerge from the commemoration.

Nellie Connally, wife of former Texas Gov. John Connally and the only person still alive who rode in the presidential death limousine, publicly disputed for the first time the Warren Commission's "magic bullet" theory, a scenario absolutely essential to its finding that Lee Harvey Oswald was Kennedy's lone assassin.

A year after the assassination the Commission concluded that Kennedy and Gov. Connally were both wounded by the first shot fired by Oswald from the Texas School Book Depository. A second shot missed completely. A third shot slammed into Kennedy's head and splattered his brains throughout the car.

But Mrs. Connally told CNN's Larry King that Kennedy and her husband couldn't have been struck by the same bullet, because she watched her husband react over a period of two seconds after the first shot struck the president.

"John [Connally] sitting right in front of him knew it was a shot," the former Texas first lady said. "He's a hunter and a shooter, you know. . . ."

Mrs. Connally continued:

"So he turned quick to his right and he couldn't see [Kennedy] because he was directly in front of him. And he said, 'No, no, no' and turned to his left. . . . Now this is a second or two. Then, as he whirled back, the second shot hit John . . ."

When pressed about the single bullet theory adopted by the Warren Commission, Mrs. Connally told King, "Do you think a bullet that went through the president's neck can hang there in air between the two seats while John turned to the right, turned to the left and came back?

"That's what I asked the Warren Commission," she explained. "I said, 'I don't believe a bullet could do that. That bullet -- the same bullet did not hit both of them.'"


Link


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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