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PrymaLScReam
Talks To Dolphins



Registered: 02/23/10
Posts: 453
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
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Weighing A Heavy Decision
#21282190 - 02/16/15 11:10 AM (9 years, 3 months ago) |
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So, in the past couple of days I've been giving a lot of thought to maybe going back on Suboxone. I jumped off it in early December, but only because I was about to be kicked off my parents' insurance plan because I'm about to turn 26. Needless to say, coming off it would not have been my choice in a perfect world.
I'm about to have my own private insurance now (although I still don't know if it will cover something like this), and I'm giving it a lot of thought. I haven't relapsed on opiates (was drinking and smoking weed again around the end of my suboxone run, and it's stayed that way since)-- nor has my state of mind reverted back to my 2011 using days state-- but I have felt like I'm in a bit of a funk since I got off and have entertained some worrisome thoughts I would have disregarded with ease mere months ago.
I know there's a lot of differing opinions on this, but I was on Subs for almost 3 years. I know how I respond to them, and it's very well. Sure, I'd wake up every morning eager for my Suboxone "fix," but it was always right on my nightstand. And after that I always felt satisfied for the rest of the day. That's the key for me. I'm not one who needs to get trashed; I just need to feel satisfied. Suboxone's absurdly long half-life made it a perfect fit for me. And sure, maybe some of this is PAWS-- hell, maybe a lot of it is-- but I'm not 21/22 anymore. I'm 26. I have loads of responsibilities right now. I was just starting to make my "comeback" from all the time I set myself back during my roxicodone days-- broke into an exciting job field that I loved, got back in school, moved into a new place, etc. It would be devastating to fuck this up because I listened to everyone except myself.
So I just have a few questions for anyone who may be able to help:
1. How hard will it be to find a doctor who would let me back on only because I was worried about what might happen if I stay off? Like I said, it's been 2 1/2 months and I haven't relapsed; but the only reason I didn't consider this sooner is because I had no health insurance.
2. Just in case my insurance won't cover me, what kinds of monthly costs would I be looking at? If this is truly for the best, I'm willing to work as hard as I need to make my payments, but I need to make sure it's not wholly unrealistic, either.
3. If I don't want any association with 12-step groups (gave them as honest a shot as anyone ever could; didn't do anything for me), how should I mention this to a doctor? As a side-note, is the fact that I'm not opposed to pot and alcohol in moderation along with Suboxone something I should also mention?
The first time I went into treatment I had healthcare that I was certain covered me and I just wanted to stop feeling sick, so these weren't questions that even registered on my radar. And yes, I know I posted a similar thread yesterday in another forum, but I'm really agonizing over these thoughts in my head right now and just need places to put them out there so I can talk to others who might understand. My personal networks of friends and family wouldn't truly understand, no matter how much they wanted to.
Edited by PrymaLScReam (02/16/15 11:11 AM)
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whitelights
Stranger



Registered: 11/25/11
Posts: 1,559
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Id say stay off them, especially if you have had problems in the past. I dont know much about the body and these types of chems and how they interact other than they are addicting and sedative. Id say if you havent relapsed its been 2.5 months the best thing would to not induldge in anything of the type, could deffinatley lead to unresponsible use. And if youve made it as far as you said you have it would be a dam shame to see it all fall back again.
-------------------- its that bitter-sweet-sour, electric-smooth-twang. everything you ever have, are. or will feel along with every emotion, joy, hate, love, fear or aspiration burning down your nerves and into the fabric of your place in this existence at ten thousand degrees above and below zero will you find yourself wondering if you've been dead or alive this whole time. being born over and over only to die over and over hoping the wheel stops in the same place it started when you spun it, and when it finally does and you can step back and take a nice deep breath you realize how beautiful life is, remember, wake up to the most beautiful day of your life every single day, its just the way.
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PrymaLScReam
Talks To Dolphins



Registered: 02/23/10
Posts: 453
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
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Re: Weighing A Heavy Decision [Re: whitelights]
#21282298 - 02/16/15 11:33 AM (9 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
whitelights said: Id say stay off them, especially if you have had problems in the past. I dont know much about the body and these types of chems and how they interact other than they are addicting and sedative. Id say if you havent relapsed its been 2.5 months the best thing would to not induldge in anything of the type, could deffinatley lead to unresponsible use. And if youve made it as far as you said you have it would be a dam shame to see it all fall back again.
On Suboxone I never had problems. On the contrary. I used them exactly as prescribed and they worked exactly as advertised for me. When you've taken them as for maintenance, there's nothing sedative about them. I got my life back together on them and then was basically kicked off during a somewhat turbulent time in my life due to circumstances beyond my control.
I personally believe that better living can be achieved through chemistry, when used within reason. And I found my Suboxone use very reasonable. When I have them, I take my dose in the morning before showering and heading out the door and I'm good to go. Without them, it's just felt like my mind has been wandering more and more in search for constant stimulation. And that is what worries me because even though I've yet to indulge any crazy notions, that same thought pattern is what played a big role in my using in the past, and I have had some thoughts lately that have been more reckless than usual. And when these have come, I haven't been so quick to shoot them down these past few times.
I know I'm a strong person. I wouldn't have even made it through 2.5 months if I wasn't. I've seen myself through some really trying times already in my (relatively speaking) short life. But I also know I can't do it all alone, and I'm not above asking for a crutch when I feel it can actually help me. When I have the help I need in dealing with the demons I'm not strong enough to fight entirely alone, I can take on just about anything else on my own.
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whitelights
Stranger



Registered: 11/25/11
Posts: 1,559
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If you truly didnt have a problem using and did as you say you did, and it honestly helps you just get through the day like you say it does, i never condone the use of these types of chems because of what they are. Weigh the risks and the benefits wisely. It sounds like you use that chem the way i use weed. If it helps, without hurting i see no problem.
-------------------- its that bitter-sweet-sour, electric-smooth-twang. everything you ever have, are. or will feel along with every emotion, joy, hate, love, fear or aspiration burning down your nerves and into the fabric of your place in this existence at ten thousand degrees above and below zero will you find yourself wondering if you've been dead or alive this whole time. being born over and over only to die over and over hoping the wheel stops in the same place it started when you spun it, and when it finally does and you can step back and take a nice deep breath you realize how beautiful life is, remember, wake up to the most beautiful day of your life every single day, its just the way.
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Spacerific
- - - >



Registered: 10/13/12
Posts: 4,923
Last seen: 9 years, 1 month
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OP why do you waste time with this crappy rudimentary ineffective crap? Overpriced as well probably?
Why not up your game and go for the real thing, get the matter handled properly, once and for all? Do you like the cat and mouse game, endless beating around the bush? How long do you have to keep on failing and relapsing, before you get the balls and time and budget to go do things right? It's one flight to Amsterdam, how hard can it be?
IMO you can fuck with Suboxone, not fuck with Suboxone, it's pretty much the same, because you're giving yourself two shitty alternatives to choose from. It's like choosing whether to masturbate with the left or the right hand, instead of finding an actual girl to have in your life. Whichever hand you choose it'll be about the same long term
-------------------- Blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear.
For truly, I say to you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it. - Matthew 13:16
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SpiritWorld
Stranger

Registered: 03/12/06
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Last seen: 5 years, 6 months
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Quote:
PrymaLScReam said:1. How hard will it be to find a doctor who would let me back on only because I was worried about what might happen if I stay off? Like I said, it's been 2 1/2 months and I haven't relapsed; but the only reason I didn't consider this sooner is because I had no health insurance.
Well, that really depends on your location. From my experience most Doctors will not prescribe to you unless you're able to prove that you're an addict, by failing a drug screen. Unless of course you go back to the same Doctor that prescribed you in the first place. However, there are various techniques of getting around the drug screen. Id be glad to share them with you via PM.
Quote:
PrymaLScReam said:2. Just in case my insurance won't cover me, what kinds of monthly costs would I be looking at? If this is truly for the best, I'm willing to work as hard as I need to make my payments, but I need to make sure it's not wholly unrealistic, either.
Again this all depends on your location. I live in California, and most of the Doctors here that prescribe Suboxone do NOT take insurance, whether it be private or state medicaid, even though most insurances do in fact cover Suboxone in full. Unfortunately, Suboxone is in the "cash cow" state of it's existence. Doctors who prescribe it are only out to make a buck. Sad but true.
So you can expect your out of pocket expenses to be anywhere between $250 a month to as high as $500 a month. Again, this all depends on location and also, the amount of medication prescribed. You'll also have to cover the cost of your bi weekly/bi monthly drug screens as well.
Quote:
PrymaLScReam said:3. If I don't want any association with 12-step groups (gave them as honest a shot as anyone ever could; didn't do anything for me), how should I mention this to a doctor? As a side-note, is the fact that I'm not opposed to pot and alcohol in moderation along with Suboxone something I should also mention?
Again, this is probably going to vary with location. This really depends on the Doctor prescribing. I personally have never heard of anyone being forced to attend NA after being prescribed Suboxone. Ironically enough, but NA actually looks down on those that use ORT. Even though statistically speaking ORT has a significantly higher success rate than NA could ever even dream of having. NA is a facade.
Just tell the Doctor that you believe NA is a cult and you work full time and are unable to jump through it's ridiculous hoops.
That being said, something you should know, right now, statistically speaking you're at a very high risk of relapse. One of the main reasons people fail after ORT(opioid replacement therapy) is because they weren't ready to get off. They were pressured either by family or environmental circumstances. I'm not trying to alarm you or anything, just stating fact.
If you feel like you're struggling, then by all means get back on Suboxone. Don't let anybody interfere with your mind. Only you know you best. Not to mention you were on this substance for 3 years. That's a very long time. I'm really surprised you've made it 2 months. Unless of course you were on a small dosage. The thing with buprenorphine is that it has a VERY VERY long half life, and it accumulates very quickly.
The rule of thumb to go by when figuring out your true tolerance is to double what your current dose is, and that usually is the true amount of the drug in your system at any given time. So lets say you were taking 4 mg everyday, well your blood plasma levels of bupe would actually be around 8 mg even though your only taking 4mg.
Most people that stay on the bupe for extended periods of time go through a very long and drawn out withdrawal followed by a couple of months and even years of PAWS. This only happens however, because of a poor tapering schedule. I'm not sure how you tapered or what doses you were at, for all I know you tapered properly, but even then, because of bupes long half life PAWS from it can literally last years. Again not trying to frighten you, just stating fact.
I only used bupe for 2 months and it was a literal God send for me. I didn't have a prescription or anything though, I self medicated. Had been using for nearly seven years prior. Been 10 months clean since. I'm kind of feeling like you though, like it would be better for me to get back on Suboxone or even Methadone then continue living in a fog of discontent and depression.
Edited by SpiritWorld (02/17/15 08:05 PM)
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PrymaLScReam
Talks To Dolphins



Registered: 02/23/10
Posts: 453
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
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Re: Weighing A Heavy Decision [Re: SpiritWorld]
#21292627 - 02/18/15 09:15 AM (9 years, 2 months ago) |
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My tapering schedule was going down 2 mg a month (and after that I took myself down to 1mg, then 0.5 for a month, and finally 0.25 for the last two weeks just to minimize the WD as much as possible). The doctor I was seeing only saw me once a month, and once we had established trust I rarely ever got drug tested. But unfortunately I live 300+ miles away from him now, and he works with a facility that is totally devoted to 12 Step, anyways. Getting away from that was actually the rationalization I used to accept the fact that everyone else was "right" when they were telling me it was time to get off. And by everyone I mean my parents and my ex (who I suspect was just jealous at the time that I had Subs because she was on probation and still struggling, and they wouldn't let her use it).
I think as long as my insurance covers the actual medication I can be okay, because that was my deal back then and with those copay coupon cards I was only paying $6 a month for as many as 60 films at a time. I created a profile on Treatment Match where I explicitly stated I wanted no 12-Steppery and so far two doctors have contacted me, but I'm still waiting to see how many more will reach out to me before I make my decision. Both of these are extremely far from my house, and one's cost would be $350/month.
If I remember correctly, before my taper (this began almost a year ago) I had stabilized at around 12mg a day. It was either that or 16; I can't be certain. But I never felt anything when I'd drop down a bit, except for a bit of fatigue when the taper first began, but that passed after a few days. Even at a dose as small as .5 mg/day the difference between having that and having no bupe is, to me, staggering.
Bupe has always done what it was supposed to for me. I just simply do not crave hard drugs when I'm on it, and I also suspect it might be an effective treatment for mild forms of depression. Towards the end, once I'd broken up with my ex and was done with all my legal requirements, I became okay with smoking weed with friends when I had no responsibilities and going out drinking with them from time to time. Even now I've still got a good handle on those particular substances. I don't prioritize them over my responsibilities, I can hold onto either one for a long time, I don't use them behind anyone's back, etc. etc. etc.
What worries me is the fact that since stopping I've had more thoughts of hard drugs-- even though I really don't want to head back down that road-- than I did in those 3 years. And when I think about those, I do picture myself returning to that life in complete secrecy. I've actually already caught myself trying to seek out some new drug connects away from the attention of the people that love me. I feel those impulsive tendencies that used to drive me to my doom back in the day slowly, but steadily, starting to rise up again. I find myself thinking about my old using friends and feeling nostalgic for those days. And now I'm agonizing over what to do because it's not like I feel downright terrible all the time. It's more like two sides of me are playing tug-of-war in my head right now.
P.S. As for telling the doc I work full time, it actually wouldn't be a lie. My last job was on a political campaign, which is as full-time as full-time gets. It wasn't uncommon for me to work 13 hour days on that job.
Edited by PrymaLScReam (02/18/15 09:19 AM)
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whitelights
Stranger



Registered: 11/25/11
Posts: 1,559
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You know i dont want to sound like a dick but it kind of sounds exactly how an opiate abuser would justify their useage
-------------------- its that bitter-sweet-sour, electric-smooth-twang. everything you ever have, are. or will feel along with every emotion, joy, hate, love, fear or aspiration burning down your nerves and into the fabric of your place in this existence at ten thousand degrees above and below zero will you find yourself wondering if you've been dead or alive this whole time. being born over and over only to die over and over hoping the wheel stops in the same place it started when you spun it, and when it finally does and you can step back and take a nice deep breath you realize how beautiful life is, remember, wake up to the most beautiful day of your life every single day, its just the way.
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PrymaLScReam
Talks To Dolphins



Registered: 02/23/10
Posts: 453
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
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Re: Weighing A Heavy Decision [Re: whitelights]
#21292700 - 02/18/15 09:31 AM (9 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
whitelights said: You know i dont want to sound like a dick but it kind of sounds exactly how an opiate abuser would justify their useage
Nah, I don't mind being told something like that. Just...which part?
When I used opiates I didn't spend too much time trying to justify it. There's little you can do to justify sticking yourself with needles every day. I just opted to lead a second life and keep it away from everyone who would care until I no longer could.
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whitelights
Stranger



Registered: 11/25/11
Posts: 1,559
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Then dont start again, i think youll find your way without those things.
-------------------- its that bitter-sweet-sour, electric-smooth-twang. everything you ever have, are. or will feel along with every emotion, joy, hate, love, fear or aspiration burning down your nerves and into the fabric of your place in this existence at ten thousand degrees above and below zero will you find yourself wondering if you've been dead or alive this whole time. being born over and over only to die over and over hoping the wheel stops in the same place it started when you spun it, and when it finally does and you can step back and take a nice deep breath you realize how beautiful life is, remember, wake up to the most beautiful day of your life every single day, its just the way.
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Spacerific
- - - >



Registered: 10/13/12
Posts: 4,923
Last seen: 9 years, 1 month
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Re: Weighing A Heavy Decision [Re: whitelights]
#21292898 - 02/18/15 10:32 AM (9 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
What worries me is the fact that since stopping I've had more thoughts of hard drugs-- even though I really don't want to head back down that road-- than I did in those 3 years. And when I think about those, I do picture myself returning to that life in complete secrecy. I've actually already caught myself trying to seek out some new drug connects away from the attention of the people that love me. I feel those impulsive tendencies that used to drive me to my doom back in the day slowly, but steadily, starting to rise up again. I find myself thinking about my old using friends and feeling nostalgic for those days. And now I'm agonizing over what to do because it's not like I feel downright terrible all the time. It's more like two sides of me are playing tug-of-war in my head right now.
Yep, sounds like a pretty good prep work for relapsing later on.
Your current plan is agonizing over what to do, because you don't yet feel terrible all the time. Awesome. Ignore the Aya idea, don't watch the video, don't Google more and do your own research, dismiss it on some "insufficient evidence" reason, or whatever the addict reason of the day is today. Mess around with various other crap alternatives, then see where you are 5-10 years from now. Put trust in mainstream crap pills, because they've had such an amazing track record with your particular issue 
If ever I see that thread coming, OMG I've relapsed my life is shit again, I'll be all and I told you so, and link to this thread. Enjoy
-------------------- Blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear.
For truly, I say to you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it. - Matthew 13:16
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SpiritWorld
Stranger

Registered: 03/12/06
Posts: 157
Last seen: 5 years, 6 months
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Quote:
PrymaLScReam said: My tapering schedule was going down 2 mg a month (and after that I took myself down to 1mg, then 0.5 for a month, and finally 0.25 for the last two weeks just to minimize the WD as much as possible). The doctor I was seeing only saw me once a month, and once we had established trust I rarely ever got drug tested. But unfortunately I live 300+ miles away from him now, and he works with a facility that is totally devoted to 12 Step, anyways. Getting away from that was actually the rationalization I used to accept the fact that everyone else was "right" when they were telling me it was time to get off. And by everyone I mean my parents and my ex (who I suspect was just jealous at the time that I had Subs because she was on probation and still struggling, and they wouldn't let her use it).
I think as long as my insurance covers the actual medication I can be okay, because that was my deal back then and with those copay coupon cards I was only paying $6 a month for as many as 60 films at a time. I created a profile on Treatment Match where I explicitly stated I wanted no 12-Steppery and so far two doctors have contacted me, but I'm still waiting to see how many more will reach out to me before I make my decision. Both of these are extremely far from my house, and one's cost would be $350/month.
If I remember correctly, before my taper (this began almost a year ago) I had stabilized at around 12mg a day. It was either that or 16; I can't be certain. But I never felt anything when I'd drop down a bit, except for a bit of fatigue when the taper first began, but that passed after a few days. Even at a dose as small as .5 mg/day the difference between having that and having no bupe is, to me, staggering.
Bupe has always done what it was supposed to for me. I just simply do not crave hard drugs when I'm on it, and I also suspect it might be an effective treatment for mild forms of depression. Towards the end, once I'd broken up with my ex and was done with all my legal requirements, I became okay with smoking weed with friends when I had no responsibilities and going out drinking with them from time to time. Even now I've still got a good handle on those particular substances. I don't prioritize them over my responsibilities, I can hold onto either one for a long time, I don't use them behind anyone's back, etc. etc. etc.
What worries me is the fact that since stopping I've had more thoughts of hard drugs-- even though I really don't want to head back down that road-- than I did in those 3 years. And when I think about those, I do picture myself returning to that life in complete secrecy. I've actually already caught myself trying to seek out some new drug connects away from the attention of the people that love me. I feel those impulsive tendencies that used to drive me to my doom back in the day slowly, but steadily, starting to rise up again. I find myself thinking about my old using friends and feeling nostalgic for those days. And now I'm agonizing over what to do because it's not like I feel downright terrible all the time. It's more like two sides of me are playing tug-of-war in my head right now.
P.S. As for telling the doc I work full time, it actually wouldn't be a lie. My last job was on a political campaign, which is as full-time as full-time gets. It wasn't uncommon for me to work 13 hour days on that job.
Hey, pay no attention to these naysayers here in the thread, their belief systems revolve around stigma propagated by drug war propaganda. I don't blame them, they never had a chance to think for themselves. I kind of feel sorry for them in a way.
The fact of the matter is, if you've already been stabilized on Buprenorphine in the past with no mishaps or relapses, and it kept you "sane", in the context of you NOT experiencing this "inner tug of war" as you describe, then in my personal and professional opinion speaking from both first hand experiencing and witnessed accounts, by all means get yourself back on buprenorphine before these thoughts of nostalgia turn into "for old times sake".
BY the way, buprenorphine does actually have anti-depressant properties. Being that it is a kappa receptor antagonist, and kappa receptor antagonists have been observed to act as antidepressants and anxiolytics.
So like I said before, only you know you. Don't let other people interfere with your mind, especially when it comes to decisions that could mean life or death.
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dutchfunkle
subowski


Registered: 02/10/11
Posts: 132
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Re: Weighing A Heavy Decision [Re: SpiritWorld]
#21347251 - 03/01/15 08:58 AM (9 years, 2 months ago) |
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Kratom
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Gorlax



Registered: 05/06/08
Posts: 6,698
Last seen: 6 days, 3 hours
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Re: Weighing A Heavy Decision [Re: dutchfunkle]
#21348807 - 03/01/15 03:51 PM (9 years, 2 months ago) |
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If you were off for 2.5 months why would you want to go back. Seems to me like you just want a reason to relapse. It's kinda retarded don't you think? I understand that you're worried you might relapse but you haven't? so your whole argument is kind of like let me build this huge dam just in case it floods. Yet the forecast says it won't rain.
anyways I wouldn't get on anything. not even kratom.
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