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OnlineYukon Cornelius
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Re: LAA = LSA , FYI [Re: s240779]
    #21272674 - 02/14/15 10:26 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Da2ra said:
Sorry.


I'm surprised Zombi made this thread because ergot* is not a popular subject on the drug forums, let alone the details of the names used for one of its chemicals...


*In 2004 it was confirmed that ergoline-containing morning glory seeds are infected with ergot. Further reading: morning glory seed info archive



Quote:

Yukon Cornelius said:
The LSA acronym convention mostly comes from LSD, the LS part of the acronym is meant to signify the Lysergic group

because things like acids in the common name aren't usually considered in establishing an acronym out of simplicity.




You're wrong. LSD: MY Problem Child (1979, Albert Hofmann) states that in the context of world distribution, Sandoz specifically chose to base the abbreviation of lysergic acid diethylamide on the German title. How are you going to state that LSD is based on lysergic... when you're also acknowledging that it's based on lysergsäurediethylamid. And how are you going to state the same thing when I pointed out that Sasha Shulgin, an ingenius chemist, indicated LAA as an abbreviation for lysergic acid amide? :lol:




I don't know what you're getting at but I never said anything about the german root of the acronym.

I guess LSA is an easier convention than LAA because it gives you some indication as a casual user that it is related to LSD.

Sasha is right, but my comment was mearly on general guidelines that chemists use to make acronyms for compounds.

It may not have been explicitly accurate, but it is an observation that I've noticed after studying chemistry for the past three years.


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Edited by Yukon Cornelius (02/14/15 10:28 AM)

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OnlineYukon Cornelius
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Re: LAA = LSA , FYI [Re: OhMrJohnson]
    #21272678 - 02/14/15 10:27 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

OhMrJohnson said:
I can pull whatever card I like thank you very much




You do that sir. :cheers:


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Re: LAA = LSA , FYI [Re: Yukon Cornelius]
    #21272722 - 02/14/15 10:39 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Gotcha. I think I've observed that too. The world of abbreviations is kind of complicated because of their inherently limited nature. Whenever topics about lysergic acid hydroxyethylamide came up -- which is another chemical found in ergot; but it may get decomposed in the stomach* -- I would use the abbreviation, LAH, however when browsing PiHKAL recently I caught the title, LAH, and when I looked it up I realized that it referred to lithium aluminum hydroxide. So I should stop using LAH when I speak of lysergic acid hydroxyethylamide. Whenever professionals speak of this chemical, they simply write it out in full. I've never seen it abbreviated, although if it was ever found to be of significance I'm sure they would come up with something cute.

Another thing I'd like to point out is that Pickard abbreviated lysergic acid 2,4-dimethylazetidide as diazedine. I find it to be significant that he gave it such a name because it shows that he was conscious of the fact that LSD is actually a unique title and that LSZ would be unjustifiable. All the professionals seems to be aware of this, for example one Peter Webster actually gave a speech about ergot at the 2006 LSD Symposium and he used the title ergine for lysergic acid amide.


And thanks for the compliment in post #21272653.


*Further reading: http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/21134361#21134361

Edited by s240779 (02/14/15 10:46 AM)

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OnlineYukon Cornelius
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Re: LAA = LSA , FYI [Re: s240779]
    #21272848 - 02/14/15 11:12 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Da2ra said:
Gotcha. I think I've observed that too. The world of abbreviations is kind of complicated because of their inherently limited nature. Whenever topics about lysergic acid hydroxyethylamide came up -- which is another chemical found in ergot; but it may get decomposed in the stomach* -- I would use the abbreviation, LAH, however when browsing PiHKAL recently I caught the title, LAH, and when I looked it up I realized that it referred to lithium aluminum hydroxide. So I should stop using LAH when I speak of lysergic acid hydroxyethylamide. Whenever professionals speak of this chemical, they simply write it out in full. I've never seen it abbreviated, although if it was ever found to be of significance I'm sure they would come up with something cute.

Another thing I'd like to point out is that Pickard abbreviated lysergic acid 2,4-dimethylazetidide as diazedine. I find it to be significant that he gave it such a name because it shows that he was conscious of the fact that LSD is actually a unique title and that LSZ would be unjustifiable. All the professionals seems to be aware of this, for example one Peter Webster actually gave a speech about ergot at the 2006 LSD Symposium and he used the title ergine for lysergic acid amide.


And thanks for the compliment in post #21272653.


*Further reading: http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/21134361#21134361




Not a problem, quality responses deserve it. :manofapproval:

That's interesting that you mention the LAH thing.

The other day I was going over the Ziegler-Natta catalyst mechanism and I noticed that they abbreviate methylaluminoxane as MAO just like the mono-amine oxidase enzyme.

The logic behind acronym assignment is a big mess in the chemistry and molecular biology world, quite a bit of overlap.

That's why IUPAC nomenclature rocks, gets straight to the point. Starts to devolve once you begin naming enzyme complexes and proteins though.


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Re: LAA = LSA , FYI [Re: Yukon Cornelius]
    #21272894 - 02/14/15 11:24 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Thanks
Quote:

Yukon Cornelius said:
Not a problem, quality responses deserve it. :manofapproval:




:lol:


Thanks for the info.

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Re: LAA = LSA , FYI [Re: s240779]
    #21272945 - 02/14/15 11:45 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Da2ra can be mean to whomever he or she pleases. He or she is constantly working to better our community in real, measurable ways. I'd say he or she is one of the most important members of this forum.


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Re: LAA = LSA , FYI [Re: s240779]
    #21273316 - 02/14/15 01:30 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Da2ra said:
Quote:

I_was_the_walrus said:
LSA came from the original german name Lysergsäureamid.




"LSA" may well relate to the German title but you know that "LSA" has never been written in any professional academic publications.* It's amusing how the one publication I have where lysergsäureamid is used does not use "LSA" as an abbreviation, although the abbreviation the article does use is probably inaccurate.




Source: Solms, H. 1956. Chemische Struktur und Psychose bei Lysergsäure-Derivaten. Praxis, 45:746.


I will provide some background information on the abbreviation used in the article. This abbreviation is based on the Sandoz code name, LA-111; this code name was created based on lysergic acid and was applied to lysergic acid amide before lysergic acid amide was known to be a naturally-occurring chemical.


Further reading: morning glory seed info archive


*With the exception of a few recent publications that picked up the "LSA" slang name.







I'm not arguing that abbreviations were most likely lost in translation and ambiguity. However, the fact remains that Hoffman was a swiss chemist who spoke german. Ergine (lysergic acid amide) is actually far different than lysergic acid, which is just a carboxylic acid.

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OnlineYukon Cornelius
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Re: LAA = LSA , FYI [Re: I_was_the_walrus]
    #21273467 - 02/14/15 02:20 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

I_was_the_walrus said:
Ergine (lysergic acid amide) is actually far different than lysergic acid, which is just a carboxylic acid.




That much is obvious.

All translations aside the commonly accepted abbreviation for Ergine in the scientific community is LAA,

the abbreviation LSA likely came from recreational users who wanted to signify it's similarities to LSD.


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Re: LAA = LSA , FYI [Re: Yukon Cornelius]
    #21273482 - 02/14/15 02:23 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

:thumbup:




Oliver, J.W., L.K. Abney, J.R. Strickland and R.D. Linnabary. 1993. Vasoconstriction in bovine vasculature induced by the tall fescue alkaloid lysergamide. J. Anim. Sci. 71;2708–2713




Genest K, Sahasrabudhe MR (1966) Alkaloids and lipids of Ipomoea, Rivea and Convolvulus and their application to chemotaxonomy. Econ Bot 20:416-428




Genest, K. 1966. Changes in ergoline alkaloids in seeds during ontogeny of Ipomoea violacea. Journal of Pharmaceutical Sciences. 12/1966; 55(11):1284-8. DOI: 10.1002/jps.2600551123




Genest K (1965) A direct densitometric method on thin-layer plates for determination of lysergic acid amide, isolysergic acid amide, and clavine alkaloids in morning glory seeds. J Chromat 19:531-539




Brown JK, Ph.D., Malone MH, Ph.D. 1978. "Legal Highs"—Constituents, Activity, Toxicology, and Herbal Folklore. Clinical Toxicology. 12(1), pgs. 1-31


Quote:

healing said:
Da2ra can be mean to whomever he or she pleases. He or she is constantly working to better our community in real, measurable ways. I'd say he or she is one of the most important members of this forum.




Thank you. Wow.

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Re: LAA = LSA , FYI [Re: Yukon Cornelius]
    #21273550 - 02/14/15 02:43 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Yukon Cornelius said:
Quote:

I_was_the_walrus said:
Ergine (lysergic acid amide) is actually far different than lysergic acid, which is just a carboxylic acid.




That much is obvious.

All translations aside the commonly accepted abbreviation for Ergine in the scientific community is LAA,

the abbreviation LSA likely came from recreational users who wanted to signify it's similarities to LSD.




That, and the fact that at the beginning of the 20th century, german was the language of science. Basically all journals and research were published in german and translated afterwards. Säure = acid and I'm sure the ambiguity doesnt stop there. As far as Im concerned, LAA and LSA are the same thing. As english is now the dominating language of science, it doesnt surprise me that the currently accepted abbreviation is LAA.

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OnlineYukon Cornelius
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Re: LAA = LSA , FYI [Re: I_was_the_walrus]
    #21273742 - 02/14/15 03:40 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

I_was_the_walrus said:
Quote:

Yukon Cornelius said:
Quote:

I_was_the_walrus said:
Ergine (lysergic acid amide) is actually far different than lysergic acid, which is just a carboxylic acid.




That much is obvious.

All translations aside the commonly accepted abbreviation for Ergine in the scientific community is LAA,

the abbreviation LSA likely came from recreational users who wanted to signify it's similarities to LSD.




That, and the fact that at the beginning of the 20th century, german was the language of science. Basically all journals and research were published in german and translated afterwards. Säure = acid and I'm sure the ambiguity doesnt stop there. As far as Im concerned, LAA and LSA are the same thing. As english is now the dominating language of science, it doesnt surprise me that the currently accepted abbreviation is LAA.




You should have read through Da2ra's post more carefully, even in german publications Lysergsäureamid is abbreviated as LA.

Has nothing to do with german -> english translation, also the idea that german was the language of science is not true.

It may have been true for chemistry leading up to the 1950's, but if you wanted to get nit-picky latin and greek would technically be the language of science.


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Re: LAA = LSA , FYI [Re: Yukon Cornelius]
    #21273759 - 02/14/15 03:45 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Yukon Cornelius said:
You should have read through Da2ra's post more carefully, even in german publications Lysergsäureamid is abbreviated as LA.




There might be obscure German publications where it's abbreviated as LSA (although there are very few publications about LAA), but the point is that unlike LSD, LAA wasn't distributed around the world as LSA. If it was, there would have been sanction to call it LSA. Solms 1956 abbreviated it as LA because its code name was LA-111. It wasn't until 1963 that LAA was discovered to be a natural product, when it was discovered in ergot-infected morning glory seeds. This was a sensational discovery, but the sensation about the natural relative of LSD died off quickly as the pure compound was never mass produced and there are various issues with using it in the form of morning glory seeds, at least not without doing a somewhat sophisticated extraction. It could have developed a good reputation, however:

Grof: Have you actually tried the ololiuhqui yourself? [oh-lowlee-uh-kee -ed.]
Hofmann: Yes, I did. But, of course, it is about ten times less active; to get a good effect, you need one to two milligrams.
Grof: And what was that experience like?
Hofmann: The experience had some strong narcotic effect, but at the same time there was a very strange sense of voidness. In this Void, everything loses its meaning. It is a very mystical experience.

--

When I discovered lysergic acid amides in ololiuhqui, I realized that LSD is really just a small chemical modification of a very old sacred drug of Mexico.

Stanislav Grof Interviews Dr. Albert Hofmann (1984). MAPS Bulletin 9.2 (Fall 2001): 22–35. http://www.maps.org/news-letters/v11n2/11222gro.html

Ololiuqui corrected as ololiuhqui
NOTE: Although the spelling ololiuqui has gained wide acceptance and is now the commonest orthography, linguistic evidence indicates that this Nahuatl word is correctly written ololiuhqui.
Note by R.E. Schultes included in the following essay: R. Gordon Wasson. Notes on the Present Status of Ololiuhqui and the Other Hallucinogens of Mexico, Botanical Museum Leaflets, Harvard, vol. 20 (1963)



The effective dose of lysergic acid amide is 1 to 2 mg by oral application.

Albert Hofmann. The Road to Eleusis: Unveiling the Secret of the Mysteries. 1978. R. G. Wasson, Albert Hofmann, and Carl A. P. Ruck. Page 10. DOWNLOAD


Also I just made two really good posts about ergot in this thread for anyone interested. Mainly about yielding purified extracts.

Edited by s240779 (02/14/15 03:51 PM)

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OnlineYukon Cornelius
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Re: LAA = LSA , FYI [Re: s240779]
    #21273767 - 02/14/15 03:49 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Da2ra said:
Quote:

Yukon Cornelius said:
You should have read through Da2ra's post more carefully, even in german publications Lysergsäureamid is abbreviated as LA.




There might be obscure German publications where it's abbreviated as LSA (although there are very few publications about LAA), but the point is that unlike LSD, LAA wasn't distributed around the world as LSA. If it was, there would have been sanction to call it LSA.

Also I just made two really good posts about ergot in this thread for anyone interested. Mainly about yielding purified extracts.




That thread has some great info, thanks for pointing it out to me. :thumbup:

Gonna chew on that tasty knowledge in a second. :crazy2:


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Re: LAA = LSA , FYI [Re: Yukon Cornelius]
    #21273775 - 02/14/15 03:51 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Just edited a bunch of info into my above post. You can chew on that info as well. :smile:

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Re: LAA = LSA , FYI [Re: Yukon Cornelius]
    #21273812 - 02/14/15 04:07 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Yukon Cornelius said:
also the idea that german was the language of science is not true.

It may have been true for chemistry leading up to the 1950's, but if you wanted to get nit-picky latin and greek would technically be the language of science.




This is the era I'm referring to. Before WWII the majority of breakthroughs in modern physics and chemistry were centered around the german language. Max Planck, Albert Einstein, Hendrik Lorentz, Wolfgang Pauli, etc. Germany and surrounding areas were the hub of science. That being said, yes, much of the common nomenclature was founded on latin origins.

Saying that the abbreviation LSA has nothing to do with the german spelling just isnt true...whether or not it was published :shrug:

Im sure it had something to do with, not matter how small it is.

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Re: LAA = LSA , FYI [Re: I_was_the_walrus]
    #21273855 - 02/14/15 04:20 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

I_was_the_walrus said:
Im sure it had something to do with, not matter how small it is.




I'm pretty sure a rule of language is that you abbreviate things in your own language unless you're authorized to do otherwise. LSD was a universally accepted title and it originated from the large pharmaceutical corporation that invented it. LSA doesn't even appear in any academic publications prior to 2009.

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Re: LAA = LSA , FYI [Re: s240779]
    #21273933 - 02/14/15 04:39 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

On top of that, if theres not a standard abbreviation aside from the IUPAC you'll likely come across several variations. When i was researching sodium salts of substituted cyclopentadienyl anions there wasnt a whole lot of literature available. Nearly every publication I found used different abbreviations for the same compound.

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Re: LAA = LSA , FYI [Re: I_was_the_walrus]
    #21273999 - 02/14/15 05:00 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

I_was_the_walrus said:
On top of that, if theres not a standard abbreviation aside from the IUPAC you'll likely come across several variations. When i was researching sodium salts of substituted cyclopentadienyl anions there wasnt a whole lot of literature available. Nearly every publication I found used different abbreviations for the same compound.




Then wouldn't all abbreviations for chemical compounds be an arbitrary designation?

If they change according to what language you speak then it's function is just as a short reference to the much longer IUPAC name.

I'd be very interested in knowing if there is such a thing as a field of etymology focused solely on IUPAC nomenclature.


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Re: LAA = LSA , FYI [Re: Zombi3]
    #21274197 - 02/14/15 06:00 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Makes sense.  It is a slang term though, so its not like it has to be correct.  Good to know for future reference though.


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Re: LAA = LSA , FYI [Re: s240779]
    #21274217 - 02/14/15 06:03 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Thanks for showing up Da2ra!! Lots of good info bro :smile:


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