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OfflineAlanWatts
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Evidence for several strains existing in a clone?
    #21272243 - 02/14/15 08:31 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

It is common knowledge on cubensis forums that a cloned fruit contains several strains, and thus selection of sectors is needed to have a true isolated strain.

The thing is, besides a few papers claiming the phenomenon is present in a specific species (summarized here: http://www.mykoweb.com/articles/GeneticIndividualsMosaics.html), I can't find any evidence for this in cubensis (or most mushrooms actually, as the linked article seems to talk of it as an exception more than the rule.)

Furthermore, the sectoring people use as evidence of different strains is known to be the result of several things, and happens in known isolates commonly enough that to look for sectoring as a way to isolate a strain from a cloned fruit doesn't seem to really mean anything.

So, why exactly do we assume cloned fruits aren't isolates? Is there some body of evidence I'm unaware of? Or are we possibly just causing the mycelium to stress out by growing it out so much on agar, misidentifying the resulting sectors as isolates, and in the end not really having a more isolated strain than the original clone was?


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Edited by AlanWatts (02/14/15 08:58 AM)

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Offlineleschampignons
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Re: Evidence for several strains existing in a clone? [Re: AlanWatts]
    #21272317 - 02/14/15 08:53 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

I'm very interested in this question, but unfortunately have nothing to add.


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OfflineAlanWatts
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Re: Evidence for several strains existing in a clone? [Re: leschampignons]
    #21272636 - 02/14/15 10:16 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

bodhisatta has found this article that seems to answer the question:

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1271/bbb.67.100


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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: Evidence for several strains existing in a clone? [Re: AlanWatts]
    #21273154 - 02/14/15 12:46 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

So if I understand that correctly there isn't really such a thing then as a 'true isolate' since mutations occur much more commonly than in say plants, so you can only really ensure similar characteristics rather than specific ones?

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OfflineAlanWatts
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Re: Evidence for several strains existing in a clone? [Re: krypto2000]
    #21273195 - 02/14/15 12:59 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

I missed the part that implied that. Could you quote the relevant part of the link that makes you say that?


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Offlineleschampignons
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Re: Evidence for several strains existing in a clone? [Re: AlanWatts]
    #21273622 - 02/14/15 03:04 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

AlanWatts said:
bodhisatta has found this article that seems to answer the question:

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1271/bbb.67.100




Thank you very much for posting this. Extremely interesting. So that settles that fruit bodies can form from/be made of more than one type of mycelial colony. But what about sectoring as a means to separate these substrains?


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OfflineAlanWatts
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Re: Evidence for several strains existing in a clone? [Re: leschampignons]
    #21273681 - 02/14/15 03:22 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

anecdotally, everyone who messes with a lot of clones says that it doesn't occur with isolates. Of course, it does happen, but it sounds like it happens so infrequently as to assume if you have sectoring, it's probably an un-isolated strain. This is what I'm told at least.


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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: Evidence for several strains existing in a clone? [Re: AlanWatts]
    #21274211 - 02/14/15 06:02 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

AlanWatts said:
I missed the part that implied that. Could you quote the relevant part of the link that makes you say that?




I didn't have time to read the whole thing, but I was basing it off of the abstract, particularly the last line.

Quote:

This phenomenon masks a clonal variability that may be surfaced through multiplication and distribution of the spawn, occasionally bringing about abnormal fruiting.




I interpret that to mean clones will still exhibit some variability in traits/phenotype and interpreted 'abnormal fruiting' to mean a mutation, and these will not normally show up without a high degree of multiplication/transfers/etc. So if you just have a single petri from an isolate and make some monos, a few more petris, a lc, w/e you're likely to have a clone and everything will be as one may imagine. If you distribute it a lot and have petris/transfers 10-100 transfers down the line as can easily happen then new traits may emerge as mutations occur in the isolate, making it no longer a true isolate in the sense that it's traditionally used. Am I misunderstanding?

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Offlineleschampignons
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Re: Evidence for several strains existing in a clone? [Re: krypto2000]
    #21275115 - 02/14/15 10:20 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

I don't think it has to do with mutations.

If I understand it correctly it means that there are several individuals (substrains/monocultures) which make up something like your petri dish with sectors or your grain spawn made from that petri dish. That means that if you take a transfer randomly you could select a chunk of the myc which is dominant in one of these substrains. Since each substrain behaves differently, your culture appears to behave differently by random chance.

In reality that substrain was there all along, hiding in with one or more other individuals/substrains, it just wasn't dominant, so the fruits appear differently.


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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: Evidence for several strains existing in a clone? [Re: leschampignons]
    #21279708 - 02/15/15 08:16 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

It may be the case that a single strain could require more than a "strains worth of genetics" if you had a single sector isolate it could be a mon-di pairing which is 3 nuclei then acting as the genetics for a single organism. lines of inhibition on a dish show up when you're down to a few sectors but in a tub you would just see them manifest as different fruit bodies, I would imagine in that study if they put that set of genetics in the tub with the red, chimeric, and white fruits you would have three sectors one that would be Di, Di-Di, and Di. or Di, Di-Mon, Mon (apparently monokaryotic nameko can fruit?) beats me I would like to know more about the genetic happenings.


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Offlinedrake89
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Re: Evidence for several strains existing in a clone? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #21281362 - 02/16/15 06:50 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

I'll say it again- fungal sex is wierd.  All the terms make my head spin as I don't work with it on a daily basis.  But there is a lot of info out there.  My own experience is with chicken of the woods.  I cloned many specimens over the last few years.  It is definitely one that has many strains in one fruit.  I'm not certain if this is evidence but from the same fruit diffident clones can range from almost white to dark orange.


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Re: Evidence for several strains existing in a clone? [Re: drake89]
    #21283546 - 02/16/15 03:34 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

drake89 said:
I'll say it again- fungal sex is wierd.  All the terms make my head spin as I don't work with it on a daily basis.  But there is a lot of info out there.  My own experience is with chicken of the woods.  I cloned many specimens over the last few years.  It is definitely one that has many strains in one fruit.  I'm not certain if this is evidence but from the same fruit diffident clones can range from almost white to dark orange.



cubes are pretty easy
there's a 25% chance spores mate


Quote:

bodhisatta said:
they don't have sexes so much as they have mating types. Cubensis is tetrapolar, heterothalic, and bi-factorial.

this basically means that a single mushroom fruit body is able to make spores that can recombine into more mycelium and thus more fruit bodies but each individual spore requires a compatible other kind of spore to mate. the fruit body can make both types. the spores are not self fertile. you get 4 spores that are haploid out of a tetrapolar fungus. there's only two mating factors in cubensis thus 4 mating types.




http://blogs.uoregon.edu/bi432/files/2014/09/Lecture-3_Basidiomycota-life-cycle-2-1bb9ivh.pdf

http://oregonstate.edu/dept/botany/mycology/bot461/class/lecture7.html

those break it down some more


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Offlinetourrat
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Re: Evidence for several strains existing in a clone? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #21302583 - 02/20/15 08:00 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

So if we isolate myc.( as far as evidenced by lack if further sectoring ..an "isolate") if I'm understanding correctly we could further isolate (in theory anyways) the genetics into possibly four different sets of genetics that have combine(bonded?) To create what appears to be an isolate ? And those genetics mesh to the point of creating "cloned" fruits ( similar in appearance).

But we could in theory isolate (not sure how) those genetics further to create the individual fruits that the "clone" specimens had derived their genetics (traits) from.


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