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InvisiblePastywhyteMDiscord
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Re: AGAR'S GRAIN LC [Re: bodhisatta]
    #21270148 - 02/13/15 06:30 PM (9 years, 10 months ago)

Hmmm that would be interesting.  Might be a little more than your average hobbiest would want to do but might have some good applications commercially.

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Re: AGAR'S GRAIN LC [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #21270155 - 02/13/15 06:34 PM (9 years, 10 months ago)

Interesting you mentioned that. eatyualive adds pickling lime to his grains. I asked him a couple of times if that could be one reason he gets away with some of what he does. What do you think?


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Re: AGAR'S GRAIN LC [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #21270162 - 02/13/15 06:36 PM (9 years, 10 months ago)

tetrahydro alpha acids. or tetra iso humulone act as ionophores, very few bacteria have a resistance and are killed by the lack of transport across their membranes.

it acts much better at a lower ph

Edited by Trusted cuItivator (02/13/15 06:37 PM)

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InvisiblePastywhyteMDiscord
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Re: AGAR'S GRAIN LC [Re: SpitballJedi]
    #21270164 - 02/13/15 06:36 PM (9 years, 10 months ago)

Its possible.  I can't remember his reason for it but that very well might be it.

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Re: AGAR'S GRAIN LC [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #21271546 - 02/14/15 01:14 AM (9 years, 10 months ago)

i recently did 20 jars via GLC and 10 jars via a grain slurry from the same jar. only difference was that i poured the blended up grain into the last 10 jars. the first 20 had liquid mycelia water. slurry jars colonized in 3 days the glc jars took 7-9 and it only took about 15cc per quart jar of grain. i just our directly out of the master into receiving quarts.

the great thing is that one quart jar can inoculate hundreds of jars and you can have full colonization in about 7-9 days. at first it took about 4 days to recover and my slurry jars were 100$% colonized at that time. but on day 4 it began to show recovery. i was about to toss the jars because it didn't do anything for those first few days.

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/21242497#21242497


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Edited by eatyualive (02/14/15 01:14 AM)

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Invisibleeatyualive
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Re: AGAR'S GRAIN LC [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #21271570 - 02/14/15 01:32 AM (9 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
I completely respect that. LC is the big payoff that carries a big risk with it. The level of care that needs to be exercised for consistently good results is not something that many people are willing to do. People who see LC or any liquid inoculate as a way to cut corners are just setting themselves up for a nasty lesson. It might not be this grow or the next, but it will come. Depending on how complacent they are when it does come it can really hurt.



i find liquids far less work. once you practice it a few times. its like clockwork. in the long run, its doing 1/10th the work. i don't see the logic in it cutting corners. if you know how to prepare a liquid inoculant properly it isn't any more difficult than agar. i find it much easier than agar to be honest. if you can prep a clean culture. pressure cooking some water, blade, jar and using a sterile syringe to inject it isn't that hard. its no more risk than agar. your not adding any nutrients to that equation. and using grains blended in water is about as difficult as making a milk shake and pouring it into a cup. ive used over 5 year old liquid culture syringes from spore works without any issues. i also think it is blended up agar plates in a syringe. its basically the same principle. i even do it with inner stem tissue and distilled water and store it for long periods of time with good success. but it does have a shelf life. apes will last maybe 6 months. other varieties like tex, burma, taz ect will last up to 2 years.

additionally i have been testing out blended grain jars as liquid inoculants. ive been dumping them directly into substrates. out of 6 tubs not one contaminated and ive had several flushes off of each. im working on different spawn ratios to see what the absolute minimum is. but it colonizes the substrate in 3 days!

one of my recent two tub grows involved using 5 quarts of grain. 1 quart was blended with water and poured into the substrate. the other 4 quarts were then spawned normally. the grain, slurry and substrate were all mixed in thoroughly and evenly with gloves on. this colonized in 3 days, i cased the tubs and the tubs looked like this after a week.
tub 1

tub 2


Quote:

SpitballJedi said:
Interesting you mentioned that. eatyualive adds pickling lime to his grains. I asked him a couple of times if that could be one reason he gets away with some of what he does. What do you think?




old hands used to put jet dry in their grain to use as a releasing agent. it would loosen the gunk off the grain. what i use pickling lime for wasn't intentionally for any type of ph buffering(maybe it helps?). i use dirty ass wbs. so the pickling lime allows the gunk to get off the grain easier. you can also use gypsum. ive used jet dry in the past in soak water as well. if your using cleaner grain it probably isn't necessary. but i use the cheap dirty ass wbs at walmart.


Edited by eatyualive (02/14/15 01:38 AM)

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Invisibled0urd3n
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Re: AGAR'S GRAIN LC [Re: eatyualive]
    #21271585 - 02/14/15 01:38 AM (9 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

eatyualive said:
ive used over 5 year old liquid culture syringes from spore works without any issues. i also think it is blended up agar plates in a syringe. its basically the same principle.





What makes you think Sporeworks does that? Just curious.


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Invisibleeatyualive
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Re: AGAR'S GRAIN LC [Re: d0urd3n]
    #21271588 - 02/14/15 01:40 AM (9 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

d0urd3n said:
Quote:

eatyualive said:
ive used over 5 year old liquid culture syringes from spore works without any issues. i also think it is blended up agar plates in a syringe. its basically the same principle.





What makes you think Sporeworks does that? Just curious.



you can see the color of the syringe looks like an agar mix of some sort. it has a golden color like hamloafs grain soak water liquid cultures. im thinking it might be mea. i could be wrong. just a guess.

ive also had one that had a pinkish color to it. all oysters.


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Invisibled0urd3n
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Re: AGAR'S GRAIN LC [Re: eatyualive]
    #21271593 - 02/14/15 01:42 AM (9 years, 10 months ago)

Interesting. Good to know. Thanks. :thumbup:


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Invisibleeatyualive
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Re: AGAR'S GRAIN LC [Re: eatyualive]
    #21271601 - 02/14/15 01:49 AM (9 years, 10 months ago)

something like this color but colonized with mycelia and blended into sterile water. so its a little lighter.




from this thread.

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/20970238/page/1

i really want to try this grain soak water liquid culture but i don't ever soak my grain. i will have to soak some so i can give it a go and break out the old stir plate and stir bars.

also these come in handy.



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InvisiblePastywhyteMDiscord
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Re: AGAR'S GRAIN LC [Re: eatyualive]
    #21271657 - 02/14/15 02:32 AM (9 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

i don't see the logic in it cutting corners. if you know how to prepare a liquid inoculate properly it isn't any more difficult than agar.




Funny enough my concerns have nothing to do with preparation of liquids as they are extremely forgiving in that regard. My main issues are the inoculation methods themselves. When it comes to LC, an agar wedge is 99.99%. I sometimes don't even test (tho I do not recommend that). Spores and tissue are not nearly as reliable and while I am sure many people see great results, its not as good as agar wedges to inoculate. IME bacteria can be present within the centre of a biopsied fruit and I have received enough dirty prints and syringes from lots of sources to never trust spores to 3D sterile media.

I am not saying that they are bad methods. I am saying that they should not be taken lightly. To tell a new cultivator to go ahead and fire a cc of ms solution from his spore syringe into his LC is reckless. To assure someone that just because they don't see anything nasty on the outside of their grain jar means their GLC is guaranteed is misinformed. I have excellent sterile procedure yet I don't trust myself to do some of those things. I cloned a pan cambo fruit once yet even as light and fine a touch that that took, I have seen bacteria pop up on a cube clone more than once. Was I sloppy? Or was some bacteria embedded in that fruit? Given that I can't find anything that definitively says that cubes only grow via turgor after the primordia stage I am inclined to think it was not my technique.

So what does this mean? It means that given your risk tolerance, experience, scale you intend to expand to, and how much time you have, a person should choose their method to fit those criteria. I'm not bashing liquids. I love them. I don't want to see them get a bad rep cause all a new person could find regarding their use was "there great, do it".

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Invisibleeatyualive
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Re: AGAR'S GRAIN LC [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #21271678 - 02/14/15 02:52 AM (9 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
Quote:

i don't see the logic in it cutting corners. if you know how to prepare a liquid inoculate properly it isn't any more difficult than agar.




Funny enough my concerns have nothing to do with preparation of liquids as they are extremely forgiving in that regard. My main issues are the inoculation methods themselves. When it comes to LC, an agar wedge is 99.99%. I sometimes don't even test (tho I do not recommend that). Spores and tissue are not nearly as reliable and while I am sure many people see great results, its not as good as agar wedges to inoculate. IME bacteria can be present within the centre of a biopsied fruit and I have received enough dirty prints and syringes from lots of sources to never trust spores to 3D sterile media.

I am not saying that they are bad methods. I am saying that they should not be taken lightly. To tell a new cultivator to go ahead and fire a cc of ms solution from his spore syringe into his LC is reckless. To assure someone that just because they don't see anything nasty on the outside of their grain jar means their GLC is guaranteed is misinformed. I have excellent sterile procedure yet I don't trust myself to do some of those things. I cloned a pan cambo fruit once yet even as light and fine a touch that that took, I have seen bacteria pop up on a cube clone more than once. Was I sloppy? Or was some bacteria embedded in that fruit? Given that I can't find anything that definitively says that cubes only grow via turgor after the primordia stage I am inclined to think it was not my technique.

So what does this mean? It means that given your risk tolerance, experience, scale you intend to expand to, and how much time you have, a person should choose their method to fit those criteria. I'm not bashing liquids. I love them. I don't want to see them get a bad rep cause all a new person could find regarding their use was "there great, do it".




oh i didn't mean using spores. yeah but you could blend up a plate like muda does into distilled water and pour it or inject it with a syringe. yeah exactly pasty. its not for everyone. but it depends on timing really. for me its less work. thats what i like about it most. if i g2g it takes me almost 5 different sittings and clean setups to equal to what i can do in one sitting with 1 1/2 pint pf jar. for instance. if i have a grain master that inoculates 10 quart jars. i would need 5 quart masters to inoculate 50 quart jars. whereas, with liquid, i could easily pressure cook 10 jar batches one day a week so on saturday morning i could do all of the transfer in one shot with 1 pf jar volume of mycelia. whereas, it would take a much higher volume of inoculant and clean sessions to get the same result in half the time it takes for those quarts to colonize using g2g. in the end im doing less work, its convenient, with the same end result. which to me, is extremely helpful when you spend 60 hours a week working.


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Re: AGAR'S GRAIN LC [Re: eatyualive]
    #21271984 - 02/14/15 06:46 AM (9 years, 10 months ago)

For safety reasons, couldn't you just PC your LC mix twice, a day apart and also do your PC runs for 1.5 hrs each?

I do my plates for 1 hr 15 minutes at 17 psi just to be safe even though it isn't really needed.

I have well water and it's laden with bacteria. Not sure what the PPM's are but it's hard water. From doing cloning with plants I know the water will grow bacteria and that's just plain water. No nutrients added. I'm guessing it's the oxygen being pumped into it via bubblers.
I have to change the water every 3-4 days. My water has a PH of 6.8

Even leaving out a cup of water will grow white slime but not as fast as bubbled water. I'm probably going to die!


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Re: AGAR'S GRAIN LC [Re: blackdust]
    #21272027 - 02/14/15 07:09 AM (9 years, 10 months ago)

100 G2G jars in a still air room gave me about 80% success rate
100 GLC jars in a still air room gave me about 100% success rate

Thats a lot of jars. GLC worked better for me.

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Re: AGAR'S GRAIN LC [Re: blackdust]
    #21272690 - 02/14/15 10:31 AM (9 years, 10 months ago)

Part of the reason LC's in general have a bad rep is because of the methods used to make them. There is nothing inherently wrong with LC. But, there may be something wrong with the stuff you put in them.

Having a fast approach is underestimated. A lot of what is commonly done is to provide a much bigger window for colonization to beat out contamination. The bigger the window, the more time we have and the slower we can go. Super fast colonization allows for a smaller window.

I think people run in to issues when people combine some of the fast approach teks with slower approach teks. When this happens, some teks get a bad rap. I think there are some subtitles at work and often get over looked.


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Re: AGAR'S GRAIN LC [Re: SpitballJedi]
    #21273098 - 02/14/15 12:29 PM (9 years, 10 months ago)

Could you elaborate? I don't understand.


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Re: AGAR'S GRAIN LC [Re: Psilicon]
    #21273116 - 02/14/15 12:35 PM (9 years, 10 months ago)

ummmm, I kinda rather not. It might be too hard to elaborate without sending the wrong message. I just wanted people to take a deeper look at the things they do and criticize.


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Edited by SpitballJedi (02/14/15 12:36 PM)

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Re: AGAR'S GRAIN LC [Re: Psilicon]
    #21273126 - 02/14/15 12:37 PM (9 years, 10 months ago)

Yeah, faster methods can be used to beat less sterile media. I have been saying this for a long time. Being clean and sterilizing our media just creates a window for the inoculate to win the race. How big a window we need to colonize depends on how fast we can colonize. I think bacteria is the largest threat in the speed battle.


000
I know this is a piss poor example but how could my oven pasteurize cakes colonize and give fruits if not for the speed of slurry. The 3 day colonization time slurry gave me let me work in a non sterile environment and to use the oven to kill enough enodo spores/bacteria to get fruits.


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Re: AGAR'S GRAIN LC [Re: blackdust]
    #21273167 - 02/14/15 12:50 PM (9 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

blackdust said:
100 G2G jars in a still air room gave me about 80% success rate
100 GLC jars in a still air room gave me about 100% success rate

Thats a lot of jars. GLC worked better for me.




Sorry but that is a ridiculous comparison and your results are predictable. A still air room does not cut the mustard for G2G. Provided your GLC and grain jar lids were equipped with a SHIP, of course your results would be better. The whole point of a SHIP is to allow for use in open air. G2G will never be as successful in a room. That comparison is akin to saying "I drove a quad and never got in an accident. I then drove a car using my feet to steer instead of my hands and got in an accident. Quads are safer than cars."

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Re: AGAR'S GRAIN LC [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #21273229 - 02/14/15 01:06 PM (9 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
\ G2G will never be as successful in a room. That comparison is akin to saying "I drove a quad and never got in an accident. I then drove a car using my feet to steer instead of my hands and got in an accident. Quads are safer than cars."





I know and thats why GLC was safer for me b/c I used SHIPS.

These were all done in a still air room. I expanded the spawn by G2G. I would get 1 or 2 bacteria jars for every 10. Always fucking bacteria.


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