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InvisibleSclorch
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Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Untouchable Force?
    #2126599 - 11/21/03 02:43 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Okay, I'm not picking on zengecko here... he's just stoked my embers.

zengecko: If it is in the universe/system, then it must be natural. "supernatural" implies it is outside the system, but then it could have no effect on the system if that was so.

Here's my question:
How can something outside a system have ANY effect whatsoever on the system without itself being affected by said system?

My answer:
It can't.

My interpretation:
The "something" must either
(A) Not Exist,
(B) Be subject to the same laws/rules/whatever within the system it is affecting,
or (C) Answer B and there is no "outside the system" and the "something" is merely an unknown found within the system.

I lean towards Answer C.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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OfflineZenGecko
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Registered: 11/02/03
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Re: Untouchable Force? [Re: Sclorch]
    #2126622 - 11/21/03 02:58 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

You've made my point for me. I was in fact implying that the whole conception of the "supernatural" is flawed, unless you simply define it as that which is not understood, then that conception can be accurate, But the word itself implies the other meaning we were discussing. BTW, i too would probably lean towards "c"
Sincerely,
That which is, and has no choice but to be


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InvisibleZero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland

Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
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Re: Untouchable Force? [Re: Sclorch]
    #2126947 - 11/21/03 11:11 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

What if "it" is something that underlays all systems, and is basically just something that is connected like you said within the system. The problem i have with christianity and most of the supernatural beliefs, is that they try to separate people from the rest of the universe. We are indeed part of all the matter, i may be guilty of this at times. But i think there is a great distinction between the separation for understanding, and the separation for a means of creation. Thats how i dont think that the normal definition for god (that is something something independent from all of us), can really be true. I think it then breaks down into a system of definitions and understandings of the said sytem.

so basically im going to agree with you on answer C, and i say that maybe within or without may be a little too extreme, and maybe that "it" (supernatural) is rather something that is connected to all things.


--------------------
What?


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Invisiblemedicinebag
Hunting

Registered: 11/15/03
Posts: 344
Loc: The land of The People
Re: Untouchable Force? [Re: Zero7a1]
    #2127073 - 11/21/03 12:29 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

The supernatural is appart of this "system" how could it not be. It is merely unrecognizable by our five senses which we use to define our reality. The supernatural is "matter/energy" that is unrecognizable to the five senses. Unless something, i.e. psilocybin/meditation/whateverittakes, unlocks a way for us to percieve without the five senses. Just a thought. I have no proof.


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OfflineAnnomM
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Re: Untouchable Force? [Re: medicinebag]
    #2127302 - 11/21/03 01:56 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Can we sense magnetism? Is magnetism supernatural?


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Anonymous

Re: Untouchable Force? [Re: Sclorch]
    #2127349 - 11/21/03 02:15 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Not exactly.

You answer B "Be subject to the same laws/rules/whatever within the system it is affecting" has more than one part. Part II of B is "or could not be a part of the system in the sense that the tangible system affects it in its normal modus operandi."

Think of a clock with its many gears. Then think of a hammer smashing it to bits. The hammer wasn't a part of the gears or working mechanisms of the clock. It interacted from outside.

This argument seems to be a line drawing game.


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Invisiblemedicinebag
Hunting

Registered: 11/15/03
Posts: 344
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Re: Untouchable Force? [Re: Annom]
    #2127355 - 11/21/03 02:18 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Magnetism, Magic, yes. I would say, to some people magnetism would be considered supernatural. Magnetism, hmm, maybe thats what magic is all about. Anyone ever hear of Ed Leedskalkin, i.e. Coral Castle in Florida. He wrote a book on magnetism after he supposidly built this vast park out of coral blocks that weighed so much a bulldozer had to be used to move them. He claimed to have figured out how the pyramids were built. This was all in the early part of the last century.
And we can prove magnetism with science. But can some of us feel magnetism. I think so. But not in the sense of taking a refrigerator magnet and seeing if someone can tell if it is near them blindfolded. I think to feal magnetism one has to "learn" how. I don't know how you would learn. Trip on it.


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Re: Untouchable Force? [Re: ]
    #2127372 - 11/21/03 02:25 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

M_M: Think of a clock with its many gears. Then think of a hammer smashing it to bits. The hammer wasn't a part of the gears or working mechanisms of the clock. It interacted from outside.

An you're telling me there wasn't a scratch on the hammer?
The hammer experienced NO stress?

I drew no line... I merely pointed it out.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Anonymous

Re: Untouchable Force? [Re: Sclorch]
    #2127379 - 11/21/03 02:29 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I didn't say that the hammer didn't experience something when it smashed the clock.

It would be like God being affected by us. Many religions say we affect God. Pantheists praying to trees. Or earth religions praying to the god of the harvest. Or Christians praying for eternal salvation.

The deist god is the only one I know of that claims not to be affected by the physical world.


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Re: Untouchable Force? [Re: ]
    #2127393 - 11/21/03 02:34 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

If the supernatural is affected by us (independent of "its" ability to choose), then it plays by our rules... and therefore it is NOT supernatural.

If the supernatural CHOOSES to be affected by us, that's a different story. However, you still have to tell me HOW something can act (not through the minds of men) on an object in this world and not suffer the consequences of Newtonian physics.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Anonymous

Re: Untouchable Force? [Re: Sclorch]
    #2127406 - 11/21/03 02:40 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

:thumbup:


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Untouchable Force? [Re: Sclorch]
    #2127745 - 11/21/03 05:26 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

How can something outside a system have ANY effect whatsoever on the system without itself being affected by said system?

if that something actually created the system it could easily do this.

if it created a virtual world with virtual laws of physics and set the initial conditions, it can affect that system at will without being affected by it. the "supernatural", if it exists, can be an untouchable force outside this system, completely unaffected by the laws that it created.



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Offlinecybrbeast
Up, then down, then...
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Re: Untouchable Force? [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2127832 - 11/21/03 06:19 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

The idea in the matrix that we could live in a simulation is much more believable than religion.
Consider this; if we ever have the computing power to simulate a civilization, there will be some scientists who would like to do it. So you don't simulate a whole universe, but you simulate a world and it's outside influences.
If they ever do it, then why couldn't they have already done it, and we are nothing more than a simulation of a world, and not even flesh.

I'm not that I'm saying it's likely that we are a simulation, only that I think it's more believable than most religions.


--------------------
futuretribe.space


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Re: Untouchable Force? [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2127947 - 11/21/03 07:18 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

infidelGOD said:
How can something outside a system have ANY effect whatsoever on the system without itself being affected by said system?

if that something actually created the system it could easily do this.

if it created a virtual world with virtual laws of physics and set the initial conditions, it can affect that system at will without being affected by it. the "supernatural", if it exists, can be an untouchable force outside this system, completely unaffected by the laws that it created.



How can one afford so much assumption? Is it sold in bulk (Sam's Metaphysical Club maybe)?


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Anonymous

Re: Untouchable Force? [Re: Sclorch]
    #2127952 - 11/21/03 07:20 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

But you aren't assuming anything?  :rolleyes: 


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Untouchable Force? [Re: ]
    #2127956 - 11/21/03 07:24 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I'm assuming a lack of the supernatural... but it's not really an assumption as it is based upon my sensory experience. But go ahead, bring up solipsism again if you think it has ANY practical value.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Anonymous

Re: Untouchable Force? [Re: Sclorch]
    #2128281 - 11/21/03 09:53 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

An assumption based upon sensory experience is an assumption nonetheless.


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Invisiblewhiterasta
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Registered: 04/09/02
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Re: Untouchable Force? [Re: Sclorch]
    #2128634 - 11/22/03 02:37 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

How can something outside a system have ANY effect whatsoever on the system without itself being affected by said system?




On a purely practical level scale plays a very large role in this question.
Example, is a supernova "affected" by you as it wipes you out?It qualifies as being "outside" of your system by scale alone
Are you "affected" by the supernova wiping you out?You are within It's system
You become just more debris with no effect upon the system called a supernova by it's scale.That's my off the cuff weak arguement.
on to better things...

On a human level I have been greatly "affected" by ideas I have absolutely no impact upon.

On that note I offer answer for you that ideas can affect systems without being afffected therefore are supernatural until manifested. They exist "above nature"until manifested in reality.
Ideas are the supernatural event of novelty expressing itself.That is unless you can explain them as physical processes. :wink:And saying we don't understand the brain and that there will be a model of novel thought in neurophysics SOMEDAY will be considered a cop out.
You of all people Sclorch are probably guilty of spawning ideas which have greatly "affected" others systems without having those affected having ANY impact upon your system.Yes you in fact wield a SUPERNATURAL gift called novelty of thought.Again unless you have a purely physical explanation for inspiration and novelty.
Cool thread :smile:
WR:rasta: 


--------------------
To old for this place


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Untouchable Force? [Re: whiterasta]
    #2128803 - 11/22/03 07:51 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I think the problem arises from the fact that everything is of one system. Obviously, it can be broken down into smaller subsystems, but where the exact line should be drawn isn't very clear because there are so many connections between everything.

I once tried drawing a map of the system that deals with music. I mean, there was the band itself, and their connection to their manager and their booking agent to all of the managers at these venues, and their was the connections to their instruments, which were made by these companies that were all networked out, and had different factories making parts for them, which probably had some shipping company shipping things, and of course there is the connection through the manager to the record company, which connects through so many areas that I won't even start to get into it (imagine Sony), and there is the connection to the fans from the record itself (think of the places that actually make the cds and the factories or labs that make the materials) or going to the live shows and who they are connected with (friends who listen)....

I soon gave up because I couldn't start one little thing without thinking of all of the things that branched off from it, and I of course didn't have any room.. it was overwhelming. :grin:

The way I see it, everything in existance is connected somehow, someway, and it is all one system. The system is constructed of many a networks that are so intertwined and intricate, but you could start with this glass of water here and follow the connections to anything else in existance.... its quite the concept!  :nut:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinesirreal
devoid
Registered: 01/11/03
Posts: 1,775
Loc: In the borderlands
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Re: Untouchable Force? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2128807 - 11/22/03 08:05 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Very true, fireworks.

:thumbup: 


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I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


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