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InvisibleLunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story
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Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
Re: Tipping [Re: redgreenvines]
    #21251883 - 02/10/15 05:18 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Quote:

Lakefingers said:
Raising minimum wages to free ineffectively rewarded service personnel from an ineffective, meager, discriminatory, irrational dependency on tips would incorporate these people into a more balanced, rational financial framework. Accordingly, minimum wage would be adjusted so that waiters would earn what conincidentally equates to a few dollars more per hour than what they earn (tips plus minimum wage) today. Like in many places, you could still tip if you wanted to and maybe a new tipping culture would arise, but there wouldn't be a dependency on irrational tipping and the average wage would still be higher for most people working in the sector.

The very system of tip-dependency is in stark opposition to what is considered a modern labor system in other sectors in democratic societies. Imagine paying your doctor, your lawyer, your mechanic, your ISP, your gas company, your babysitter, your university, your grocery stores, your banks, your creditors, your employees, etc. only because you thought it was "polite" or only when it "made you feel good." You'd get locked up or beaten up if you tried it and people would see you for what an elitist narcissist you are.

OP is about the custom and social obligation of tipping and its economic effect, so yes minimum wage is an underlying economic issue.



my narcissim has not been hiding, so this is not a problem, but I guess your motivation is strong.




Be careful, you're going to "get locked up or beaten up" when they actually notice.

Are debtor prisons, and physical violence for not paying someone back in style?  Are we back in the 1920s?  The last time I checked, it was exactly the opposite.  Debtors get to routinely declare bankruptcy, and stiff everyone they owe with no penalty whatsoever other than further fucking their already shitty credit.  What did I miss?


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.

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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,485
Re: Tipping [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #21251976 - 02/10/15 06:15 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

CosmicJoke said:
On tangent, have you noticed how artists are being further pushed into what's comparable to a tipping sector? In an age of digital piracy, many musicians and authors are turning away from overly restrictive forms of copyright protection (DRM) and moving towards releasing their works for free under a creative commons license, which can be converted to any file format, copied and redistributed to others, etc. 

Rather than fighting copyright wars, which they'll never win (all forms of DRM are inevitably hacked), they're embracing a new business model of giving their stuff away and accepting donations, which, imo, amounts to a tip.  For some, like the author Corey Doctorow, this business model is greatly increasing his income, while preserving people's rights to do as they wish with their data (say convert their ebook from a Kindle format to some format for another brand of e-reader).

I don't think it's ideal for artists, but sometimes you have to adapt to the times rather than fight a losing battle.



One of my businesses/sidelines is drawing and painting.
I have all my stuff on the web (over 3500 pieces) with no drm.
I know people take it, have seen t-shirts with it, and yet I do not restrict.
Recently some companies have commissioned me because of the exposure and popularity.
so, not ideal, but not that bad either.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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OfflinexFrockx
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Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,458
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 6 days, 2 hours
Re: Tipping [Re: redgreenvines]
    #21253701 - 02/10/15 02:48 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

"Raising minimum wages to free ineffectively rewarded service personnel from an ineffective, meager, discriminatory, irrational dependency on tips would incorporate these people into a more balanced, rational financial framework."

So you want to make a job someone can earn a living on and turn it into a minimum wage job? Sounds like you could run for congress.

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InvisibleLakefingers
Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
Re: Tipping *DELETED* [Re: CosmicJoke] * 1
    #21257563 - 02/11/15 09:04 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Post deleted by Lakefingers

Reason for deletion: Reason enough.

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InvisibleRahz
Alive Again
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Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,395
Re: Tipping [Re: Lakefingers]
    #21258060 - 02/11/15 11:12 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Accordingly, minimum wage would be adjusted so that waiters would earn what conincidentally equates to a few dollars more per hour than what they earn (tips plus minimum wage) today.




Well that's the idea I'm contesting unless the minimum wage is to be adjusted to +$20 per hour. A waiter serving 4 tables per hour receiving a 4 dollar tip will earn close to 20 per hour. Most of the servers I know earn a minimum of $10 per hour when business is slow and more than $20 per hour when business is good.

In the examples you give, they are mostly skilled labor and as such command higher than minimum wage pay. If my doctor earned minimum wage I would be sure to tip her.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
I am      I feel      I do     I love I speak    I see    I know


ā€œScience advances one funeral at a timeā€
~Max Planck

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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
happy mutant
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Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
Re: Tipping [Re: Lakefingers] * 1
    #21258626 - 02/11/15 01:32 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Lakefingers said:

Yes, I've been paying close attention to that. There are many problems with the pre-digital system and there are many problems with the post-digital system. Authors like Doctorow who counter-intuitively (according to the pre-digital model) make more off of encouraging people to pirate their works are the exception and they aren't threatened anyhow. They're already big moneymakers. The problem is small literature, quality literature, etc., which are increasingly threatened by the digital system and the shift in publishing houses to abandon their flagships of quality literature. Things are similar for music, etc. Both pre- and post-digital systems tend towards concentrating resources among the power(ful).

Once things like restaurant visits are digital and/or no longer affected by scarcity, etc., then we'll have a direct analogy with authors and musicians in the age of digital abundance.




Most of the indie musicians I know (and I know quite a few from around the city) don't make money off of their albums anymore, though a few do from publishing, starting their own indie labels.  Nonetheless, they readily embrace the post digital models, even though primarily they make their money off of touring, they need people listening to their music so that at least some are interested in seeing them live. 

It all can be tough, especially with health problems - it's hard to stay on the road all the time.  But they generally accept that's the way the world works and they have to pave their own way into a post digital era... I think they've had some practice though, prior to the digital era, they started with taking their tapes to the record stores.  They've always been in the practice of figuring out ways to support themselves, so that they don't have to quit and get jobs.... as waiters.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

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