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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,514
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: Are you an American? What aspects of your country are you unhappy with? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 1
#21254227 - 02/10/15 05:00 PM (9 years, 3 months ago) |
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So, given that you agree that good employees will rise above minimum wage, then why do we need a minimum wage at all? Only poor employees will get paid the minimum, so why reward them for being poor employees?
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Are you an American? What aspects of your country are you unhappy with? [Re: Enlil]
#21254434 - 02/10/15 05:33 PM (9 years, 3 months ago) |
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You're missing the point. A legal secretary who earns $200 an hour for the firm will not get paid $100 an hour, because the range for that position is much less. Sure a good legal secretary will be at the top of the legal secretary range, but that's usually it.
My current company earns $600,000 per employee per year. Does it pay that much out? Of course not. They pay out the going rate, and people have to accept it, because other company's pay the going rate as well (again, if you're really good, you'll be at the top of your range).
Which is fine. Except I don't think that range should go below a certain amount.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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zappaisgod
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Re: Are you an American? What aspects of your country are you unhappy with? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#21254984 - 02/10/15 07:02 PM (9 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: You're missing the point. A legal secretary who earns $200 an hour for the firm will not get paid $100 an hour, because the range for that position is much less. Sure a good legal secretary will be at the top of the legal secretary range, but that's usually it.
My current company earns $600,000 per employee per year. Does it pay that much out? Of course not. They pay out the going rate, and people have to accept it, because other company's pay the going rate as well (again, if you're really good, you'll be at the top of your range).
Which is fine. Except I don't think that range should go below a certain amount.
I've asked it before and I'll ask it again. How many companies have you owned or run and how many employees have you written paychecks for?
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,514
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: Are you an American? What aspects of your country are you unhappy with? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#21255000 - 02/10/15 07:04 PM (9 years, 3 months ago) |
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Actually, you're missing the point. The range is not set by minimum wage. Minimum wage is for piss-poor workers and those who are just starting. It's the rock bottom. It's not meant to be a long-term pay rate, and anyone who stays minimum wage for longer than a year is probably being overpaid. Why would we want to overpay them even more?
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Are you an American? What aspects of your country are you unhappy with? [Re: zappaisgod]
#21255149 - 02/10/15 07:31 PM (9 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: I've asked it before and I'll ask it again. How many companies have you owned or run and how many employees have you written paychecks for?
I work with HR professionals in a large company to hire people, not some CEO who isn't an HR professional. And I know salaries are set by the "going rate". That's why everyone in my company makes so much less than they're bringing in. Again, that's not what I'm arguing about. I'm saying that working people deserve a living wage in my opinion. If you don't want to pay them that, then don't hire them. That makes the talent pool larger for everyone else.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (02/10/15 07:44 PM)
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Are you an American? What aspects of your country are you unhappy with? [Re: Enlil]
#21255175 - 02/10/15 07:34 PM (9 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: Actually, you're missing the point. The range is not set by minimum wage.
It HAS to be if there is a minimum wage. The bottom get that, and everyone else gets more.
Quote:
Enlil said: Minimum wage is for piss-poor workers and those who are just starting. It's the rock bottom. It's not meant to be a long-term pay rate, and anyone who stays minimum wage for longer than a year is probably being overpaid.
What does "overpaid" mean? If I'm paying a fast food guy $15 per hour and he's bringing in $200 an hour, how am I "overpaying" him?
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
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Re: Are you an American? What aspects of your country are you unhappy with? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#21255184 - 02/10/15 07:36 PM (9 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said: I've asked it before and I'll ask it again. How many companies have you owned or run and how many employees have you written paychecks for?
I work with a large company's HR department all the time to hire people, and I know salaries are set by the "going rate". That's why everyone in my company makes so much less than they're bringing in. Again, that's not what I'm even arguing about. I'm saying that working people deserve a living wage in my opinion. If you don't want to pay them that, then don't hire them. That makes the talent pool larger for others.
So the answer is NONE
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Are you an American? What aspects of your country are you unhappy with? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#21255190 - 02/10/15 07:37 PM (9 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
Enlil said: Minimum wage is for piss-poor workers and those who are just starting. It's the rock bottom. It's not meant to be a long-term pay rate, and anyone who stays minimum wage for longer than a year is probably being overpaid.
What does "overpaid" mean? If I'm paying a fast food guy $15 per hour and he's bringing in $200 an hour, how am I "overpaying" him?
What fantasy world do you live in?
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,514
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: Are you an American? What aspects of your country are you unhappy with? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#21255230 - 02/10/15 07:43 PM (9 years, 3 months ago) |
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Overpaid means that someone else in the market is available and would either:
1. Do the same job for less money, or 2. Do a better job for the same money.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Are you an American? What aspects of your country are you unhappy with? [Re: zappaisgod]
#21255249 - 02/10/15 07:46 PM (9 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: So the answer is NONE
I work with HR professionals at a large company to hire people; not some CEO who knows much less about that particular field.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Are you an American? What aspects of your country are you unhappy with? [Re: Enlil]
#21255261 - 02/10/15 07:48 PM (9 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: Overpaid means that someone else in the market is available and would either:
1. Do the same job for less money, or 2. Do a better job for the same money.
Using your definition, I have to supplement people's paychecks because their employers don't pay them enough. If the employers don't pay them enough, then they're underpaid.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,514
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: Are you an American? What aspects of your country are you unhappy with? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#21255288 - 02/10/15 07:52 PM (9 years, 3 months ago) |
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Pay them enough for what, exactly?
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Are you an American? What aspects of your country are you unhappy with? *DELETED* [Re: Enlil]
#21255384 - 02/10/15 08:07 PM (9 years, 3 months ago) |
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Living wage.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (02/10/15 08:21 PM)
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Enlil
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Re: Are you an American? What aspects of your country are you unhappy with? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#21255454 - 02/10/15 08:19 PM (9 years, 3 months ago) |
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A person can live on far less than minimum wage.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Are you an American? What aspects of your country are you unhappy with? [Re: Enlil]
#21255493 - 02/10/15 08:26 PM (9 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: A person can live on far less than minimum wage.
If you want to argue that the bottome 10% should be making even less than they are now, then fine. I personally don't think that's a good thing.
At least you admit that's your goal, because the world can't support too many well off people.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,514
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: Are you an American? What aspects of your country are you unhappy with? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#21255504 - 02/10/15 08:28 PM (9 years, 3 months ago) |
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I think lazy, unmotivated workers should live very uncomfortable lives. We should encourage productivity and discourage slackers.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Are you an American? What aspects of your country are you unhappy with? [Re: Enlil]
#21255515 - 02/10/15 08:31 PM (9 years, 3 months ago) |
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I also think we should encourage productivity and discourage slackers.
But if minimum wage workers earn more than $10 per hour (or thereabouts), then I personally think they should be paid $10 per hour, so they don't have to rely on my tax dollars.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,514
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: Are you an American? What aspects of your country are you unhappy with? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#21255534 - 02/10/15 08:34 PM (9 years, 3 months ago) |
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They don't earn that much, though, and the answer is to make them live on what they do earn.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Are you an American? What aspects of your country are you unhappy with? [Re: Enlil]
#21255568 - 02/10/15 08:42 PM (9 years, 3 months ago) |
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Then don't hire them.
But you really can't say "they don't earn that much", because other than sales, it's very difficult to determine how much someone earns a company. For example, how much does someone who collects all the grocery carts in parking lots and brings them back to the front of a store make for that store? It's a necessary job, as the store would probably go out of business if there were no carts available for customers. But how do you put a price tag on them?
I say pay them a living wage, you say fuck them.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Enlil
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Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,514
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: Are you an American? What aspects of your country are you unhappy with? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 1
#21255579 - 02/10/15 08:44 PM (9 years, 3 months ago) |
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I say pay them what a free market will support. If someone else will do the job cheaper, then so be it.
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