Home | Community | Message Board


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Kraken Kratom Kratom Capsules for Sale   Bridgetown Botanicals CBD Concentrates   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Left Coast Kratom Buy Kratom Capsules   PhytoExtractum Kratom Powder for Sale

Jump to first unread post Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | Next >  [ show all ]
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,485
Re: Tipping [Re: Lakefingers]
    #21242309 - 02/08/15 05:19 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Lakefingers said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
which particular ideal of mine* did you think would be best served by first finding a hot dog vendor.

you also may find yourself on the pavement one day. with high speed internet in your phone and not a dime in your pocket.

Sorry




This tanget isn't about some middleclass person who goes homeless and needs some help getting back into the middleclass social order, but about professional begging and begging as a way of life.



I do not regard being a schizophrenic as a profession, though it truly may be one (chosen, practiced and perfected).
I do not see the challenge as one of picking up Humpty Dumpty and putting him back together again.
Rather I see it as we are a family and some of us are sick.
Some sick ones are not going to get well, and we have to deal.

I agree that programs support some people and that groups like Salvation Army are unbelievably well appointed to many of those tasks, and when they have donation stations I whole-heartedly add a few bucks.

what you see on the street is not covered.

Begging has some terrible history which includes child mutilation, and crippling and pimping. In the west our institutions have mostly eradicated that. Most of the beggars are known to the police and other agencies, yet they are still hanging out in their nightmare trips and we walk right by.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinexFrockx
Male User Gallery

Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,458
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 6 days, 1 hour
Re: Tipping [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #21242314 - 02/08/15 05:23 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

"If you had bothered to read the thread, I tip 20% always, regardless of whether the service was good or bad - if it's bad, I just don't go back. If what you extracted from the thread is that I think people should stop tipping, you're sorely mistaken.  The point is to think about the problems that this system creates, and alternatives that may work better."

Replied to OP, then read the thread.

So you tip :cool:

Here's the problem I see. Servers can make far more from tips than restaurants will ever want to pay them straight up. If all of a sudden 20% was added to the cost of all food, then most people would get serious sticker shock, even though it makes no sense. And there is no guarantee the 20% would go to paying servers. More than likely restaurants would still find it in their hearts to pay a meager if not minimum wage.

Especially at expensive restaurants, a server can make a lot of money, and often even more than 20% on a bill. I am not sure that all servers would want to forgo the custom, honestly.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleCosmicJokeM
happy mutant
 User Gallery


Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
Re: Tipping [Re: xFrockx]
    #21242350 - 02/08/15 06:00 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
Replied to OP, then read the thread.

So you tip :cool:

Here's the problem I see. Servers can make far more from tips than restaurants will ever want to pay them straight up. If all of a sudden 20% was added to the cost of all food, then most people would get serious sticker shock, even though it makes no sense. And there is no guarantee the 20% would go to paying servers. More than likely restaurants would still find it in their hearts to pay a meager if not minimum wage.

Especially at expensive restaurants, a server can make a lot of money, and often even more than 20% on a bill. I am not sure that all servers would want to forgo the custom, honestly.




Well, you're probably right on the sticker shock. I recall J.C. Penny's picked up one of Apple's retail executives, and he decided that their clientele was too sophisticated to have things on sale the entirety of the year, and instead would just market their products at the same price as it was on sale, but without the sales tag.  They nearly went bankrupt, and his ass was canned. The problem is he was running the company like Apple, who can get away with a $2500 priced laptop, without marketing it as a $3000 laptop on sale for $2500.  For many, the illusion of getting a bargain is pretty powerful hypnotism.

Anyways, I'm interested in viable alternatives, maybe a preset service charge by law required in the bill, that's apparently the way Denmark does it :shrug:  You get the low sticker price, the set gratuity, and no expectation of tipping, though it's not banned.

From Wiki:

Tips (drikkepenge, lit. "drinking money") are not required in Denmark since service charges must always be included in the bill by law.[13] Tipping for outstanding service is a matter of choice, but is not expected.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,485
Gifting is not wrong [Re: xFrockx]
    #21242352 - 02/08/15 06:02 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

I kinda like the custom.

I kinda like unregulated or verboten drugs too:
bear in mind that any arrangement can be perverted by individuals with malice, and worsened by regulations.

The problem - I am certain of this, is not tipping per se, nor is it alms or any form of money/energy transfer that is not specifically in exchange for a service.

(not all of life need be commerce - the essence of gift is not transactional)

The problem - is people bumbling through life being shamed or forced into behaviors that make no sense (in the situation), or that only make sense if you extrapolate far beyond the obvious, introducing god, mysticism and imaginary political systems that are not in place.

This makes ordinary situations into symbols for a political policy for which a person is grandstanding, and all of us are taken hostage over that political sell job.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,485
Re: Tipping [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #21242365 - 02/08/15 06:17 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

CosmicJoke said:
...
I prefer donating money to an organization to help the homeless, giving to beggars is incredibly ineffective -as Lake implied, the more you give, the more you ask of them to spend their time on the street.



You still did not address my question of to which ideal of mine are you presenting solutions.

I am not an idealist, so I need to know why you are responding as if my "ideals" are unrealistic. (maybe you have me confused with another poster)

I have not presented "ideals", I am quite critical of that class of thought.

Now I also want to question your claim of a personal preference to  "donating money to an organization".

Which organization did you choose, or have you not gotten around to that aspect of your gift giving adulthood yet?

It could be enlightening to see why did you chose that particular externalization of your personal right to individual charitable action?


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleCosmicJokeM
happy mutant
 User Gallery


Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
Re: Tipping [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #21242384 - 02/08/15 06:42 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Quote:

CosmicJoke said:
...
I prefer donating money to an organization to help the homeless, giving to beggars is incredibly ineffective -as Lake implied, the more you give, the more you ask of them to spend their time on the street.



You still did not address my question of to which ideal of mine are you presenting solutions.

I am not an idealist, so I need to know why you are responding as if my "ideals" are unrealistic. (maybe you have me confused with another poster)

I have not presented "ideals", I am quite critical of that class of thought.

Now I also want to question your claim of a personal preference to  "donating money to an organization".

Which organization did you choose, or have you not gotten around to that aspect of your gift giving adulthood yet?

It could be enlightening to see why did you chose that particular externalization of your personal right to individual charitable action?




I'm sorry you're abhorred by the word ideal, by that I meant the most suitable action (words do have multiple definitions).  Let's rephrase that as your proclivity for feeling good about street charity and tipping.  Say you're walking down the city street with $10 of disposable income in your pocket, and you come to a corner with a food cart and a beggar - the vendor is hard working, the beggar reeks of booze, how do you distribute your money and why?  I was playfully suggesting a way to satisfy both.

I donate to a half a dozen charities, my basic concerns are efficiency  - a high percentage of what they spend is going towards their programs, a low percentage of administrative and fundraising expenses, and dollar-for-dollar fundraising efficiency.

What does that mean?  Charities spend money to make money, the charities I want to give to spend pennies on the dollar to raise that buck.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

Edited by CosmicJoke (02/08/15 07:07 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleCosmicJokeM
happy mutant
 User Gallery


Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
Re: Tipping [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #21242390 - 02/08/15 06:54 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

If you're looking for specific charities, one of my favorite local charities is one that recycles technology and provides access to computers, the internet, education, and job skills in exchange for community services.  Basically it refurbishes people's used tech and gives it back to the community with a new lease on life, its volunteers will be trained to do the refurbishing and they will get a free computer and free classes on how to use the linux operating system.  Many of the refurbished computers will go to grant recipients, such as Portland's Homeless shelters (they need 'em to run their setup), and they also have an extremely fair priced thrift shop.  Lastly, what can't be reused is recycled responsibly.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,485
Re: Tipping [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #21242409 - 02/08/15 07:05 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

thanks for clearing all that up, and recognizing that I am not an idealist.
all the same
my real world scenario in the street is not like the one you have imagined.
instead, consider that on any day, I have 4 dollars loose change more or less in my right rear pocket and that is for coffee or quickly grabbing and dropping in busking trays of any sort.
(no fumbling with wallets for me)

I have my favorite subway buskers:
one sings
"aint no sunshine when you're gone"
and
"knocking on heavens door" etc.
I give him 2.00$ every time I see him.

my route does not usually include a hot dog vendor and a bum.

miscellaneous beggars get other coins
all servers get a tip, and great service is rewarded as if they are rediscovered family.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleLakefingers
Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
Re: Tipping *DELETED* [Re: redgreenvines]
    #21242559 - 02/08/15 08:11 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Post deleted by Lakefingers

Reason for deletion: No reason.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleLakefingers
Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
Re: Tipping *DELETED* [Re: xFrockx]
    #21242582 - 02/08/15 08:19 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Post deleted by Lakefingers

Reason for deletion: No reason.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinexFrockx
Male User Gallery

Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,458
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 6 days, 1 hour
Re: Tipping [Re: Lakefingers]
    #21242593 - 02/08/15 08:25 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

""As I pointed out above the system of tipping is very problematic. It's not a problem for me that it's unequal, but let's not lie and pretend like it's a system guaranteeing equality and logical wages."

Who said it was? Weren't you the one accusing someone else of setting up and tearing down strawmen?


"What's more reasonable? That all service personnel receive a reasonable wage for their work or that we uphold an illogical, discriminatory, inefficient wage system because some people actually make more waiting tables than being doctors?"

What is your obsession with what is reasonable and fair? It comes down to the law of the jungle. There is absolutely nothing stopping restaurants from doing what you suggest. Here's one that is now: http://www.collegian.psu.edu/news/borough/article_c8584c72-ac1a-11e4-91b5-77460b965ffa.html

Why don't they all do it? Because it doesn't seem to be the best option for everyone. To be honest, for me it looks like 6 of one, a half dozen of the other. It really doesn't matter either way, both have pros and cons.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleCosmicJokeM
happy mutant
 User Gallery


Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
Re: Tipping [Re: Lakefingers] * 1
    #21242633 - 02/08/15 08:37 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

It's not going to solve the biggest problems, but we evolve pretty slowly towards approximating a system that's equitable, so it seems as good a place as any to to investigate other countries that have different systems,  like a law set gratuity that's not discriminatory to race, physique etc.  Even with a 20% law bound gratuity, that's likely not enough to make it on your own here in Portland, unless you're in a top end restaurant where the bills are high, but it's a baby step to make sure some people aren't getting as fucked as they currently are.  It's a long way off from a guaranteed annual income / negative income tax, as we've discussed before, but maybe something that could be accomplished on our time table.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,485
Re: Tipping [Re: Lakefingers]
    #21242691 - 02/08/15 08:55 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Lakefingers said:
Who's claimed schizophrenia is a profession, etc.? You have. As usual, when things get thick you set up straw men and knock them down. This time you've done it after having implemented one of your desperate, trademark, backhanded personalisms by calling me an asshole by means of calling your old self an asshole.



ok here is a bit of google results from homelessness and schizophrenia; it does not matter what side of the fence you are on, scholars and researchers confirm this matter extensively as other than your premise, and excuse me for imagining that you may have read anything like this before in your course of being a socially informed professor.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1034/j.1600-0447.2002.02209.x/abstract;jsessionid=4B1B29D805E0AF0FBB9942264AD88748.f01t01?deniedAccessCustomisedMessage=&userIsAuthenticated=false ---"The rate of schizophrenia in homeless persons reported in the 33 published reports, representing eight different countries, ranged from 2 to 45%. In the 10 methodologically superior studies, the prevalence range was 4–16% and the weighted average prevalence was 11%. In addition, rates were higher in younger persons, women and the chronically homeless. Slightly less than half of the homeless persons with schizophrenia were not currently receiving treatment.

Conclusion: Schizophrenia is much more prevalent among homeless persons than in the population at large. Future research should focus on better ways of meeting the mental health care needs of homeless people with schizophrenia."

http://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/abs/10.2105/AJPH.84.2.265 --- "RESULTS. Homeless subjects showed significantly higher levels of positive symptoms, higher rates of a concurrent diagnosis of drug abuse, and higher rates of antisocial personality disorder. Homeless subjects experienced greater disorganization in family settings from birth to 18 years and less adequate current family support.
Read More: http://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/abs/10.2105/AJPH.84.2.265"

http://ps.psychiatryonline.org/doi/10.1176/appi.ps.51.2.216 --- "RESULTS: Of the 213 patients, about a fifth (19.2 percent) met the criterion for noncompliance. Medication noncompliance was significantly associated with an increased risk of rehospitalization, emergency room visits, homelessness, and symptom exacerbation"

straw man - I don't think so, all backhanded personalism aside.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleCosmicJokeM
happy mutant
 User Gallery


Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
Re: Tipping [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #21242694 - 02/08/15 08:55 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Of course, then there are services that aren't based on food.... Bellhops, maids, valet parkers in hotels for example.... It's not easy math like a restaurant...  These ones are especially awkward, and I go out of my way to carry my own bags to prevent them from doing their jobs...I'd rather just park my car, carry my own bags, and keep my room tidy for my stay and avoid a social interaction I don't care for.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinexFrockx
Male User Gallery

Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,458
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 6 days, 1 hour
Re: Tipping [Re: Lakefingers]
    #21242696 - 02/08/15 08:56 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

"Your laws of the jungle argument assumes a particular kind of market. Other countries have regulated their markets in different ways in order to made sure the jungle can be lived in. That's a scary thought, because people love their jungle, especially if they don't have to live there and can get cheap service from people who do."

Even the strictest communism forms in a place without rules.

So are you suggesting we should all be socialists? Or that just restaurants should be socialist? I am confused by your position here. For someone who believes in something so much, you are really having trouble putting it across. Why don't you say what you think, instead of just ridiculing other things?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleLunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story
Male User Gallery

Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
Re: Tipping [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #21242717 - 02/08/15 09:01 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

If I'm feeling particularly mean, I go to the bottle recycle place with box after box of empty bottles of imported beers that aren't sold at that store.  Give them to the tweekers to try to recycle.  Keeps them busy and helps deter their habit at the same time.


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.

Edited by LunarEclipse (02/08/15 09:02 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleLakefingers
Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
Re: Tipping *DELETED* [Re: redgreenvines]
    #21242755 - 02/08/15 09:13 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Post deleted by Lakefingers

Reason for deletion: No reason.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblehTx
(:
Male User Gallery


Registered: 03/27/13
Posts: 5,724
Loc: Space-time
Re: Tipping [Re: LunarEclipse] * 1
    #21242757 - 02/08/15 09:13 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Most if not all servers make well below minimum  wage (think 2.13/hr) which serves to pay the taxes on their tips..which they survive off of.

If anything the social custom of tipping is cheapness on the restaurants half.
But its not your servers fault.
If nothing went major wrong i always tip at least 15 percent because they honestly live off of tips..and some restaurants do a tipshare  of 3-5 percent total sales. Which means if you do not tip, technically the server is paying for you to eat.

Point: your kind of a cheap asshole if you refuse to tip without solid reason. (Like the server ignoring your table)


--------------------
zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes
Light up the darkness.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleLakefingers
Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
Re: Tipping *DELETED* *DELETED* [Re: xFrockx]
    #21242794 - 02/08/15 09:23 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Post deleted by Lakefingers

Reason for deletion: Reason?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleLunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story
Male User Gallery

Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
Re: Tipping [Re: hTx]
    #21242803 - 02/08/15 09:24 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

hTx said:

Point: your kind of a cheap asshole.




"you're".


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | Next >  [ show all ]

Shop: Kraken Kratom Kratom Capsules for Sale   Bridgetown Botanicals CBD Concentrates   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Left Coast Kratom Buy Kratom Capsules   PhytoExtractum Kratom Powder for Sale


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Do you feel your knowledge is a burden or a gift?
( 1 2 all )
Grav 5,353 37 09/08/02 09:55 PM
by Anonymous
* All Such Gifts as These gettinjiggywithit 448 0 10/02/04 07:50 PM
by gettinjiggywithit
* Is masterbation morally wrong?
( 1 2 3 4 all )
inbetween 8,384 76 10/24/02 12:16 PM
by TeKHeAD009
* God Was Wrong
( 1 2 all )
Anonymous 3,149 30 12/28/02 04:37 AM
by Anonymous
* Exsistance is pointless... (prove me wrong, plz)
( 1 2 3 all )
ShrooomKing 4,315 45 04/22/11 08:20 PM
by jjdiggincrates
* A Gifting Culture
( 1 2 3 all )
Icelander 3,331 51 06/01/05 03:21 PM
by Swami
* the Gifted Program
( 1 2 all )
Sclorch 4,264 36 07/24/03 01:08 PM
by Albino_Jesus
* Spiritual Gifts MAGnum 912 5 09/07/04 02:38 PM
by Todcasil

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
4,038 topic views. 0 members, 4 guests and 25 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.025 seconds spending 0.007 seconds on 14 queries.