|
CosmicJoke
happy mutant



Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
|
|
Quote:
LunarEclipse said:
Quote:
CosmicJoke said: Well, there are plenty of attractions for me - I can walk to work, I can bike virtually everywhere I want to go, there are 100 of the top restaurants in the city available to me in a 5 min walk, good concert venues, bars, theater pubs. It's obviously not perfect, but it's what I want, and I have to deal with some 'shit' every now and again. It comes with the territory....
Saying I am a wanting to be a big man is awfully personal, LE. Good thing I'm not a narc/wouldn't drop a dime, irl or as a shroomerite.
Well it was your basic premise that people are trying to impress others with tips. So I am assuming that probably includes you. I guess impressing the people on the street is OK as long as no one thinks you are actually trying to impress them? Good thing you aren't a narc or wouldn't drop a dime? OK. Sure.
Well at least you were consistent with the 20% rule for everyone...
That was only one of my reasons, nobody on the streets witnessed my trash being lugged away to my knowledge. Maybe I felt obligated to tip, maybe I tipped because the guy was hot, maybe because it was a "dirty job", maybe for the reason we all consider good - he got there within a half hour and was gone in 45mins...
All of these aside, the discussion I tried to open was that there might be a dark side to tipping, filled with social inequity. Only Lakefingers has picked up on this with any thoughtfulness or PP&S worthy discourse... Everyone else has only considered how it makes them feel good to reward good service or justified to punish poor service.
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
|
redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,485
|
|
justified, hmm...
--------------------
_ 🧠 _
|
Lakefingers
Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
|
Re: Tipping *DELETED* *DELETED* [Re: Algo]
#21239651 - 02/07/15 02:06 PM (9 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Post deleted by Lakefingers
Reason for deletion: No reason.
|
redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,485
|
|
let me get this straight: you find the culture of recognized tipping inherently evil (for x reasons related to work class distinctions, ethics and echoes of slavery) and you think that people should defy or transcend the practice (of tipping, or accepting tips, or expecting tips to be available) because it is an injustice in the hospitality industries; and somehow we can in this way revolutionize our culture for the better, or at least restaurants?
--------------------
_ 🧠 _
|
Lakefingers
Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
|
|
Post deleted by Lakefingers
Reason for deletion: No reason.
|
Lakefingers
Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
|
Re: Tipping *DELETED* *DELETED* *DELETED* [Re: redgreenvines]
#21239818 - 02/07/15 02:40 PM (9 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Post deleted by Lakefingers
Reason for deletion: No reason.
|
Tropism
ChasingTail


Registered: 09/12/09
Posts: 2,039
|
|
I do not give to beggars, which are very common where I live, and the fact that I would do so because it would make me feel good is one of the underlying reasons that should at least trigger contemplation about my motivation and the effects.
I tend to let my hedonistic value of the satisfaction -however shallow- carry more weight then the contemplation. Sometimes acknowledging our place is in turn acknowledgment that everything in the end is an action in pursuit of positive stimuli. While we should abstain from making ego stroking a needy habit, I am confused by the notion around here that there is some wrong with it. It is apart of being what we are.
I look at it as such:
Two men die tomorrow. One spent his time crippled by his awareness, trapped in a need to break behavioral patterns and resist the ego driven desires (i.e. 'helping' a beggar) and lost forever in contemplation over action. The other didn't give a shit. Can't say why, or if he was too stupid, but he tips and gives and while it is acted from self-interest it feels satisfying none the less. Who lived happier?
Edit: This is something I have much contemplation over personally, as I try to strike a balance in life between caring too much and too little.
|
Lakefingers
Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
|
Re: Tipping *DELETED* [Re: Tropism]
#21239969 - 02/07/15 03:15 PM (9 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Post deleted by Lakefingers
Reason for deletion: No reason.
|
CosmicJoke
happy mutant



Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
|
|
Quote:
Lakefingers said:
Thanks, that's interesting. I'm on the fence about recycling, especially certain materials when I've read more about it, but I am very impressed by the amount of trash I'm able to produce in a week considering I have a low "carbon footprint" compared to the average in my city. Do you know how they sort the materials in the blue bin when it gets to the plant where you're at? Do they weight that all in bulk? Sort it?
The contents of the blue bin go to a sorting facility, and a combo of automated and manual sort line work will separate and group cardboard, paper, plastic, and metal materials. Once the sorting is complete, each of those will get compacted into 2,000 lb bales, they do like 20 an hour. The bales are sold to various paper, plastic, and metal mills for processing.
I know what you mean, life is so ridiculously complex that it's incredibly difficult to know what's good for the planet. It reduces some forms of pollution, creates others .
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
|
redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,485
|
|
Quote:
Lakefingers said: It feels good to be mighty whitey. Why do you perpetuate the system of begging? What service are you being provided with that you find deserves remuneration? Do you find that a worthy way of life? Why is temporary stop of mild misery even something that you should attempt? Can you even demonstrate that you achieve this effect?
I do not give to beggars, which are very common where I live, and the fact that I would do so because it would make me feel good is one of the underlying reasons that should at least trigger contemplation about my motivation and the effects. It is not my natural reaction to not give, but it my policy now. It is much easier for most people to give and smile.
I used to think like that. but I figured out I was being an asshole because the poor buggers do need.
cause and effect are not that tightly coupled that what you think is detected by the universe and voila, systems that have evolved over millennia suddenly change.
i.e. magical thinking does not make sense when you are on the tarmac with someone actually suffering, and it costs you next to nothing to help...
I am not saying buy a heroin addict his next fix.
I am not saying buy a crack mamma shit.
but some of it does go like that, and these people have already fallen through the cracks.
being right in your head about how things should be long term does not help them or alleviate any suffering at all, it makes you much less human in the moment that you have a chance to live.
--------------------
_ 🧠 _
|
CosmicJoke
happy mutant



Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
|
|
I have a solution for all your ideals RGV, buy a hot dog for the beggar and give the change to the food cart vendor, thus rewarding a hardworking citizen while assuring that the shiftless beggar does not get the wherewithal for another drink, while giving you a nice little hit of middle class self-righteousness.
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
|
redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,485
|
|
which particular ideal of mine* did you think would be best served by first finding a hot dog vendor.
you also may find yourself on the pavement one day. with high speed internet in your phone and not a dime in your pocket.
Sorry
--------------------
_ 🧠 _
|
CosmicJoke
happy mutant



Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
|
|
I can see about 4 options.
You care about making the beggar happy, but not the impact of your money. The beggar will probably spend the money on booze, but hey, we all have free will, right? You didn't force him to buy the booze instead of food.
Or, you care about the impact of your money, but not for enabling booze buying beggars. You donate the money to a cause to help the homeless.
Or you care about both the beggar and the impact of your money. This is the toughest case and usually involves the futile exercise of trying to convince the beggar to "get some help" - take advantage of the social services within the city. You're basically trying to have an intervention on the street.
Lastly, you don't care at all, and you go spend that money on yourself, after all, you earned it.
I prefer donating money to an organization to help the homeless, giving to beggars is incredibly ineffective -as Lake implied, the more you give, the more you ask of them to spend their time on the street.
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
|
Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,395
|
|
The only good point in abolishing tips is that an employee might be paying more into SS, though I feel certain most people who work for tips would find themselves making less. Many businesses would simply pay minimum wage. The trend is to pay out the least amount possible.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace I am I feel I do I love I speak I see I know “Science advances one funeral at a time” ~Max Planck
|
redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,485
|
|
Quote:
CosmicJoke said:... I prefer donating money to an organization to help the homeless, giving to beggars is incredibly ineffective -as Lake implied, the more you give, the more you ask of them to spend their time on the street.
that is not a terrible thing, but the people you see on the street are seldom serviced by the organizations you would like to support. by all means give to charities, but that does not mean closing your eyes to the reality that many people have fallen through the cracks. they are broken they don't even want to be fixed. and you can lighten their load a bit.
usually that is not a time when the hot dog vendor shows up or lakefinger has something to point out. so you can pretend you have no money, or you are in too much of a hurry, or you can drop a quarter or 2 if you have spare. big deal. what's the big deal?
--------------------
_ 🧠 _
|
Lakefingers
Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
|
|
Post deleted by Lakefingers
Reason for deletion: No reason.
|
Lakefingers
Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
|
|
Post deleted by Lakefingers
Reason for deletion: No reason.
|
CosmicJoke
happy mutant



Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
|
|
Quote:
Lakefingers said:
Quote:
CosmicJoke said: I have a solution for all your ideals RGV, buy a hot dog for the beggar and give the change to the food cart vendor, thus rewarding a hardworking citizen while assuring that the shiftless beggar does not get the wherewithal for another drink, while giving you a nice little hit of middle class self-righteousness.

In my experience at home and abroad, most beggars have refused food.
I was being playful with RGV. My experiments with feeding the homeless haven't been successful either, and why would they? From what I understand about Portland, most beggars are receiving food stamps, about $200 a month for a single man, and the first thing they do is sell their card for $100, they have better opportunities for food from their shelters and soup kitchens. They have mental problems and medicate with drugs, alcohol, and cigarettes. That's where your money is going. One's intentions may be compassion, but it's dangerous compassion at best.
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
|
xFrockx


Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,458
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 6 days, 1 hour
|
|
Quote:
CosmicJoke said: What do you guys think of this social custom? In theory, we're supposed to be rewarding people for their good service, but I think that's seldom the case. I think that mostly we're tipping out of social obligation, out of how we want to be perceived by our peers (one's way less likely to give an ungenerous tip while their peers are watching them), and lastly out of discrimination -race, sex, and physique greatly play into how well people get tipped.
Maybe we'd be better off if tipping went away. Some countries, like Iceland, do not tip at all, and there's been research done that indicates there's a positive correlation between countries that tip the most and corruption.
Any thoughts or observations on this practice?
"Some countries, like Iceland, do not tip at all,"
Not true anymore. Their economy collapsed, and wages are at all time lows. They hope for tips, and will openly talk about how travel guides screw them. The whole 15-20% thing might not be customary, but when someone isn't making a living wage tipping is greatly appreciated.
You definitely talk like someone who never had a job that depended on tipping. It isn't about custom or obligation, its about helping out the person who served you, who isn't making jack shit to support themselves. Until our businesses fairly pay these people a living wage, and provides benefits, I will be tipping, because I am not so poor or greedy that I can't fork up some cash.
|
CosmicJoke
happy mutant



Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
|
Re: Tipping [Re: xFrockx] 1
#21242307 - 02/08/15 05:17 AM (9 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
xFrockx said: "Some countries, like Iceland, do not tip at all,"
Not true anymore. Their economy collapsed, and wages are at all time lows. They hope for tips, and will openly talk about how travel guides screw them. The whole 15-20% thing might not be customary, but when someone isn't making a living wage tipping is greatly appreciated.
You definitely talk like someone who never had a job that depended on tipping. It isn't about custom or obligation, its about helping out the person who served you, who isn't making jack shit to support themselves. Until our businesses fairly pay these people a living wage, and provides benefits, I will be tipping, because I am not so poor or greedy that I can't fork up some cash.
Ok, my information is dated and so is wiki. If you had bothered to read the thread, I tip 20% always, regardless of whether the service was good or bad - if it's bad, I just don't go back. If what you extracted from the thread is that I think people should stop tipping, you're sorely mistaken. The point is to think about the problems that this system creates, and alternatives that may work better.
I've heard of one NYC restaurant that rolls the 20% tip into the cost of their food, and then the waiters are commissioned based on how much food they sell. It seems like a better system.
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
Edited by CosmicJoke (02/08/15 05:24 AM)
|
|