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InvisibleXochitl
synchronicitycircuit
Registered: 07/15/03
Posts: 1,241
Loc: the brainforest
Harmala & Mushroom Chocolate?
    #2124215 - 11/20/03 02:36 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

A friend of mine is planning on eating mushroom chocolates this weekend and might be taking Syrian Rue as well. I strongly warned her against this as chocolate contains Tyramine which is necessary to avoid when consuming a MAO-inhibitor. She says she recently tried this combination and there were no noticeable side-effects. I told her not to take this combination at all, but she wants a second opinion considering her previous success.

Quote:

from: http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/maois/maois_info2.shtml Chocolate - is safe to ingest for most patients, unless consumed in large amounts (Anon, 1989; McCabe, 1986).




According to Erowid, chocolate is typically safe so as long as large amounts are consumed. But yet, I think it is risky. Anyone else have an opinion or prior experience? Otherwise I am going to maintain my position and strongly tell her not to do this combo.

Thanks       


--------------------
As we know, there are known knowns. There are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns. That is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don't know we don't know.

-Donald Rumsfeld 2/2/02 Pentagon


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OfflineMixomatosis
great ape

Registered: 10/28/03
Posts: 1,306
Loc: cipherland
Last seen: 9 years, 1 month
Re: Harmala & Mushroom Chocolate? [Re: Xochitl]
    #2124239 - 11/20/03 02:52 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

I've taken syrian rue numerous times, and I pretty much always made a point of not eating for at least 4 hours before the trip. But in the later stages of a trip and after I will eat contraindicated foods. I've never had any kind of noticeable problem. I would rate myself as "relaxed" on the subject of mixing rue and food. But would I take them in chocolate? I wouldn't, but if she already did and it was fine, why not? Then again, why bother? Get some mushrooms out of chocolate. Grow your own and then eat em to your heart's delight.

But back to the subject, I think that it's a longshot that you would have any kind of crisis on syrian rue, but I reccomend strictly adhering to the dietary rules, even though I've already declared myself "relaxed" in the future should I take it again I will make a point of fasting all day beforehand, and I will start eating again well after the dosing.

If I were in your shoes, I'd not worry at all should she take it, but stick to my guns that she should wait till she has non-chocolated shrooms. What's the hurry? You could have yourself a few doses 2 months from right now of your very own homegrown shrooms if you were so inclined. I reccomend taking the time and not rushing to get high again so much that you violate even the most irrelevant minor ground rule. We all have a limited number of times we're going to trip in our life, we may as well make our trips well-designed adventures. If you knew that you were only going to be tripping two dozen more times in your life, wouldn't you make each one count.

So there ya go, a stoned rant with some hopefully helpful opinion and information. (notice how stoners always feel like they wrote waaaay too much when they're on these forums? I feel like that now)


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OfflineInfrared
sleeping
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Registered: 07/15/02
Posts: 12,988
Loc: Chicago, USA
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Re: Harmala & Mushroom Chocolate? [Re: Xochitl]
    #2124266 - 11/20/03 03:09 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

did you read this part of erowid vault :wink: i never had a problem eating most anything when i took syrian rue.  i usually just fasted for like 4-5 hours and ate about 1 hour after i took it.

http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/maois/maois_info7.shtml

"More Thoughts on MAOI Interactions
Anonymous (1996)

>I've read that Peganum Harmala is very potent MAOI and that it can
>be harmful to eat foods containing tyramine after ingesting harmala
>alkaloids. Now this leads to my questions; what do you prefer
>to eat if we assume that somehow small amounts of alkaloids
>are active on your body and how long should one avoid tyramine?

Well, Peganum Harmala (Syrian Rue) contains harmaline and harmine, both potent, but selective (and short-term reversable) inhibitors of MAO-A. But there are three good arguments that tyramine is not a problem:


Timing. Tyramine gets digested pretty quickly, and likely clears the gut in 12 hours or so. The harmala alkaloids are also short acting, and also clear in 12 hours, perhaps more like 6 hours. Most people who take Syrian Rue brews do not eat anything just before, since vomiting is so common, and few people eat a big meal right afterward. This means it's unlikely the two would be at high levels at the same time.
Selectivity. Tyramine is also controlled by MAO-B, which is not affected by the harmala's, which inhibit MAO-A. Medical experience with moclobimide, another reversable MAOAI (but not as strong as harmaline), is also that tyramine is not as much of a problem as it is with the older, irreversable (2 weeks or so), and non-selective medical MAO-I's such as parnate.
Experience. There are some anecdotal reports of ingesting tyramine foods just after a Syrian Rue experience without problems.

When one is first working with an MAOI, even the harmalas, it best to be cautious. Hypertensive reactions are not only unpleasant, but can be extremely unpleasant, do permanent damage, or be fatal. To be cautious, avoid aged cheese, red wine, and other aged/pickled/fermented foods (soy, yeast) for 12 hours before and after ingesting Syrian Rue or other reversible MAOI. I would not worry about chocolate, beer, or coffee, in reasonable amounts before or after harmala.

Each person is unique and there's no reason to take any health risks the first few times out with this stuff. Its hard enough on the body when you're 'clean'. It is not likely to be a coincidence that many of the South American cultures that used harmala had strong proscriptions around foods that were acceptable in the time leading up to ayahuasca ceremonies. Some psychonauts have also reported that when they have cleaned out their diet for a day beforehand, their experiences are far less nauseating and have less uncomfortable body load. There's too little data on this to say much with certainty, however.

Also, there are some drugs which are only cleared by MAO-A, stimulants and anti-histamines. I would avoid these, especially MDMA and other amphetamines.

Also, most anti-depressants (all medical MAOI's and SSRI's, others) can increase serotonin levels to dangerous levels when combined with MAOI-A's. The problem is called "serotonin syndrome". I would not take Syrian Rue if you're on any anti-depressants.

There's still much we (and I) don't know..."



--------------------
When chemistry is outlawed.. Only outlaws have chemistry:rainbowdrink:


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InvisibleXochitl
synchronicitycircuit
Registered: 07/15/03
Posts: 1,241
Loc: the brainforest
Re: Harmala & Mushroom Chocolate? [Re: Infrared]
    #2125294 - 11/20/03 04:19 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Thanks mixo and deepblue :thumbup: 


--------------------
As we know, there are known knowns. There are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns. That is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don't know we don't know.

-Donald Rumsfeld 2/2/02 Pentagon


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Invisiblepsychopsilocyber
Male

Registered: 12/11/02
Posts: 1,020
Re: Harmala & Mushroom Chocolate? [Re: Xochitl]
    #2132934 - 11/24/03 06:21 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

I've heard of people using mushroom chocolates as a ploy to fit less mushrooms in there for the money, sometimes people put MAOI's in the chocolates too, which isnt very safe if they're going to be sold.


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InvisibleXochitl
synchronicitycircuit
Registered: 07/15/03
Posts: 1,241
Loc: the brainforest
Re: Harmala & Mushroom Chocolate? [Re: psychopsilocyber]
    #2132952 - 11/24/03 06:36 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

correct. chocolates on the market are often a scam. And putting MOAIs into the mix unbeknownst to the consumer is beyond fucked up.

update: she took the chocolates and rue and reported no side-effects.


--------------------
As we know, there are known knowns. There are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns. That is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don't know we don't know.

-Donald Rumsfeld 2/2/02 Pentagon


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