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OfflineKickleM
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Registered: 12/16/06
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Re: There is no doer [Re: laughingdog]
    #21241671 - 02/07/15 10:40 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

awareness is no more mysterious than "experiencing".
If no awareness then no experiencing.


the same can be said of the experiences themselves and maybe even more directly
if no experiences, no experiencing


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: There is no doer [Re: laughingdog]
    #21241704 - 02/07/15 10:50 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
"So are you saying awareness doesn't do anything?"
Exactly
Silence is context for sound,
it does not make sound.
Space is context for objects
but is immaterial, and doesn't effect them.
(although it does have some properties:
there are only 17 wallpaper groups in 2 dimensions for example)
Also more abstract than objects are thoughts.
Awareness is the context of thoughts.
Awareness is more subtle than space, but still,
awareness is no more mysterious than "experiencing".
If no awareness then no experiencing.
We have made it into a big deal because we are so focused on the material.
Everything is awareness. We never see the world. The world as we see it is two images upside down on our retinas, recombined in a brain that is totally dark, by multiple modules. This type of processing is true to some degree of all 'our' perceptions'. In that sense we are like automatons.
I think the aim of vipassana practice is to disentangle the mix of perceptions that normally create a sense of self. The claim is that at some point the whole house of cards collapses. It is never claimed that just by thinking about it we can "get it".




No.

I just see things differently.

To me, awareness is consciousness is the implicate order (which has been treated quantitatively by Dr. David Bohm) is the macroscopic wave function, and it underlies everything.  To me, the universe is almost certainly conscious, throughout.  So, therefore, to me, awareness does something.  I am now talking about realms and processes well beyond an individual human mind, but it is mirrored in the individual, and I do not think it is as simple as you seem to.

Conscious automatism is false.  It is a by-product of Cartesian dualism, and Newtonian determinism.  Science has even shown this to be the case.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: There is no doer [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #21241733 - 02/07/15 10:59 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

I have no idea what "implicate order" means
anymore than the "holy ghost"

you say
"universe is almost certainly conscious"

I ask do you think the universe has a self?

dualism to me is when you divide the world into consciousness
plus a subject that is conscious of an object, actually three parts here.

I think physics got stuck between particles and waves till they came up with fields
and transcended their dualism


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: There is no doer [Re: laughingdog]
    #21241787 - 02/07/15 11:12 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
I have no idea what "implicate order" means
anymore than the "holy ghost"

you say
"universe is almost certainly conscious"

I ask do you think the universe has a self?

dualism to me is when you divide the world into consciousness
plus a subject that is conscious of an object, actually three parts here.

I think physics got stuck between particles and waves till they came up with fields
and transcended their dualism




I have no idea whether the universe has a self, or really, what a self even is in this context.  Regarding the rest, it would be way too involved to go into it here, and none of it really has any place in this particular forum.  Suffice it to say, I think consciousness is more fundamental than mass, energy, space and time, but that all of these are a kind of special extension of it.  The rest is for another place and time.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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