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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Are you an American? What aspects of your country are you unhappy with? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21240471 - 02/07/15 05:22 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Let's make it a billion dollars an hour then.  That would be even better.



I don't know how many times I've explained this to you.
Because business couldn't afford a billion dollars an hour.  :facepalm:

If you can't afford to pay workers at least a living wage, then you have to accept that your business isn't viable in a civilized society.



Of course they coulsd afford more since the people would have more to spend.  That is your entire rationale.  You have nothing else.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Are you an American? What aspects of your country are you unhappy with? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21240828 - 02/07/15 06:59 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Of course they could afford more since the people would have more to spend.  That is your entire rationale.  You have nothing else.



Great point!

If employers could afford to pay people a billion dollars an hour (which they can't), the demand for all products would go up so much that there would be a shortage of supply.  Not only that, but people would retire after a day's worth of work, and there would also be a shortage of labor.  Prices would then be forced to spike up to the point where people had to go back to work.

What is the optimal minimum wage that prevents us from reaching that tipping point?  I have no idea, since we've never gone high enough to find out.  I'm only proposing we give people a living wage, but it wouldn't surprise me if the optimal number was significantly higher than that.


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Are you an American? What aspects of your country are you unhappy with? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21242748 - 02/08/15 09:10 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

I was being factious.  The tipping point for minimum wage is Zero.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Registered: 11/11/09
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Re: Are you an American? What aspects of your country are you unhappy with? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21242821 - 02/08/15 09:27 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Why do you refuse to take inflation into account? The real minimum wage is less than it was when it was first enacted. You act like unskilled workers are ransoming the economy to get free money, when it reality it amounts (the $10.10 proposal) to nothing more than a cost of living adjustment.



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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
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Registered: 11/29/01
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Re: Are you an American? What aspects of your country are you unhappy with? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #21242868 - 02/08/15 09:38 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

The only acceptable minimum wage is "more than zero". Some are barely worth that but then there's that whole "slavery" thing.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Are you an American? What aspects of your country are you unhappy with? [Re: luvdemshrooms] * 1
    #21242878 - 02/08/15 09:40 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Even that is a limitation of freedom, though.  Why should an employee be prohibited from working for free in an effort to prove himself?


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Are you an American? What aspects of your country are you unhappy with? [Re: Enlil]
    #21242883 - 02/08/15 09:42 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Like an internship?


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Are you an American? What aspects of your country are you unhappy with? [Re: Enlil]
    #21242903 - 02/08/15 09:44 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Even that is a limitation of freedom, though.  Why should an employee be prohibited from working for free in an effort to prove himself?




He or she shouldn't.

I was mocking those who think working for lower wages is "slavery".


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Are you an American? What aspects of your country are you unhappy with? [Re: The Ecstatic] * 1
    #21242904 - 02/08/15 09:44 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Call it what you want.  My problem with minimum wage has never been about economics.  It's about freedom.  Why should the government have any business telling competent adults that they can't agree on a specific wage?


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Are you an American? What aspects of your country are you unhappy with? [Re: Enlil]
    #21242933 - 02/08/15 09:51 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Because freedom is overrated, to put it simply.


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InvisibleAlgo
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Registered: 12/15/14
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Re: Are you an American? What aspects of your country are you unhappy with? [Re: Enlil]
    #21242956 - 02/08/15 09:57 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

the real issue here is squirrels. has anyone else noticed how many there are? there is so many they are turning white thats not good.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Are you an American? What aspects of your country are you unhappy with? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #21242986 - 02/08/15 10:04 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Because freedom is overrated, to put it simply.



Spoken like a man who enjoys enough freedom to take it for granted.


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InvisibleAlgo
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Re: Are you an American? What aspects of your country are you unhappy with? [Re: Enlil]
    #21243030 - 02/08/15 10:13 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

i got so enthrolled in squirrels i totally forgot what this thread was even about sorry. i ate to many fresh mushies this morning


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Are you an American? What aspects of your country are you unhappy with? [Re: Enlil]
    #21243062 - 02/08/15 10:20 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Because freedom is overrated, to put it simply.



Spoken like a man who enjoys enough freedom to take it for granted.




I can't even deny that. But if total freedom were the goal, we wouldn't have invented government.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Are you an American? What aspects of your country are you unhappy with? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #21243092 - 02/08/15 10:28 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

I agree, and no one is talking about "total freedom"...at least as far as I can tell.  The purpose of Government, however, is to provide a structure under which people can peacefully coexist.  An example of such laws are the creation of an economy where we can own property and trade that property using common currency.  Laws protecting contracts also aid in that process and is one protection found in our Constitution.  Where, however, is the point where we have enough laws to coexist?  Where have we crossed into the realm of government serving as nanny?

To me, the answer is clear:  Government needs to provide a means of trade (ie currency) and a process by which contracts can be made and enforced.  Telling people what they can and can't agree on within those contracts, however, is where the government has become a nanny.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Are you an American? What aspects of your country are you unhappy with? [Re: Enlil]
    #21243262 - 02/08/15 11:24 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Agreed, but sometimes a nanny is needed.

We can agree there's a spectrum, freedom on one side and government on the other. It's about finding a middle ground that the populace agrees on, and the populace seems to agree with a minimum wage. Sure, there are valid arguments against it, but who says where law should fall on that spectrum if not the majority?


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Are you an American? What aspects of your country are you unhappy with? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #21243281 - 02/08/15 11:30 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

I agree that, in the absence of a monarchy wherein I'm the monarch, the laws should be largely dictated by the majority.  That doesn't mean I can't disagree with them.  People are basically scared and stupid.  Scared, stupid animals make poor decisions.  It's the way of the world.

More freedom means that the smarter, better-equipped people will rise to the top.  The stupid masses will suffer.  I'd prefer that world because I consider myself not to be among the stupid masses.  I am, after all, about myself first and the rest of the world second.



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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Are you an American? What aspects of your country are you unhappy with? [Re: Enlil]
    #21243322 - 02/08/15 11:40 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Ah, so a social darwinist?

I'd put myself squarely in that boat if I didn't think that world would be a shitty place. The point you made is a huge factor in how my political and social opinions have changed, 5 years ago my card carrying Republican self would've agreed with you, but I think social responsibility is important for our civilization. Somewhere along the lines we started helping those who aren't as fast, as healthy, as intelligent, and I don't see that as an evolutionary accident. There's a lot to be said about a compassionate society, it keeps us glued together, makes it more of a team race than an individual one.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Are you an American? What aspects of your country are you unhappy with? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #21243374 - 02/08/15 11:50 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Maybe, but as Commie pointed out in the other thread, your team is the U.S., which makes up less than 5% of the world population.  Even if you solved what you perceive to be the problem in the U.S., that'd be ignoring the larger problem which can only be solved by drastically reducing the U.S. standard of living.  Unless your plan is to permanently ignore the rest of the world, you'd be giving the U.S. poor a boost to take it all back later.

In the end, you're still a social Darwinist...you've just created a broader class you'd like to see rise to the top.

P.S.  The world is already a shitty place.  The U.S is definitely one of the least shitty places in the world, however.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Are you an American? What aspects of your country are you unhappy with? [Re: Enlil]
    #21243486 - 02/08/15 12:10 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

do you really think there is no alternative but to lower the US standard of living to improve others'?


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