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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Philosophy vs Meditation [Re: leery11]
    #21211375 - 02/01/15 02:51 PM (9 years, 23 days ago)

What first comes to my mind when associating Plato with meditation is the parable of the prisoners in the cave, who accept shadows as reality.  Perhaps meditation could be considered an attempt to go beyond naive realism, that one's perception is reality.  Zen Buddhists have the koan "Who is the Master who makes the grass green?" I suspect meditating might give you some insight into both.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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InvisibleLakefingers

Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
Loc: mumuland
Re: Philosophy vs Meditation [Re: redgreenvines]
    #21211379 - 02/01/15 02:51 PM (9 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Cogitation is often declared to be out of scope of meditation, while some definitions equal meditation to cogitation, while insight meditation (vipasana) includes the awareness of all mental contents including cogitation.

That is to say,
one may use, as object of non-reactive attention, the process of cogitation including non-reactive observance of mental objects transforming during the cogitative process.

That is to say,
one may meditate with detachment with the object being thinking through something.
keeping up the detachment even when some excitement evolves with eureka flash moments.




Once again you imply a position I don't hold and discuss that instead of what I wrote.

To get back on topic, OP is confused and presupposes a misreading of Plato in order to fit it into loose concept of "a place from which knowledge arises." Plato's ideal world is not place that can be visited.

If you want to freely play around with Plato's terminology and poetically reinterpret it then do so, but don't call it Plato and don't post it here expecting me to accept it just because it sounds cool.


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InvisibleLakefingers

Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
Loc: mumuland
Re: Philosophy vs Meditation [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #21211392 - 02/01/15 02:53 PM (9 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

CosmicJoke said:
What first comes to my mind when associating Plato with meditation is the parable of the prisoners in the cave, who accept shadows as reality.  Perhaps meditation could be considered an attempt to go beyond naive realism, that one's perception is reality.  Zen Buddhists have the koan "Who is the Master who makes the grass green?" I suspect meditating might give you some insight into both.




This isn't Plato, but like redgreenvines, you're free to make things up because it makes you seem like a friendly, flexible guy.


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InvisibleLakefingers

Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
Loc: mumuland
Re: Philosophy vs Meditation [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #21211435 - 02/01/15 02:59 PM (9 years, 23 days ago)

As usual you cite a wide range of reading which is easy to do at the level you or I have achieved academically, but a paraphrase of psychological misreadings and inferences about tangential musings do not demonstrate the point and only serve to conceal that you're off-topic. But yes, you're free to incorporate Plato into your meditation and ponderings in whatever field and whatever way you like.


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Philosophy vs Meditation [Re: MarkostheGnostic] * 1
    #21211480 - 02/01/15 03:11 PM (9 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:


Metaphysically postulated Platonic Forms can, and have been translated by Jung as Archetypes (primitive or original model). As Jung said, he cannot make anything of metaphysical assertions about reality, only potentially experiential and hence psychological phenomena. It is an ancient story, projecting contents of the human psyche into the celestial realms. It is what anthropomorphization of Deity is about. Augustine used Plato's word Archetype, and Jung adapted it to his theory. Whether metaphysical Forms or psychological Archetypes, both remain models.

The further question is to what extent do psychic models have, or are able to acquire by degrees, 'objective' reality? This question can be put to diverse models such as Autonomous Complexes that effect human behavior, or more radically, 'astral bodies' as vehicles of cohesive consciousness capable of operating apart from the physical body, or Sheldrake's Morphic Fields which contribute to the formation of phenomena from crystals of new substances to animal and human behavior.

There are other phenomena, usually deemed paranormal, that may also represent aspects of these models, from 'cold spots' in 'haunted houses' to ghosts, ley lines, power spots, crop circles (with associated 'orbs'), and others. Usually, these things are relegated to currently established models of electromagnetism on the physical end of the continuum, or psychological aberrations on the psychical end of the continuum. But, Forms and Archetypes may well belong to a different paradigm enjoining both physical and psychical, perhaps an "Implicate-Explicate Order," as David Bohm described it.

The issue is not about right or "wrong," accurate vs. inaccurate, at least with regard to Platonic Forms. Plato's Ideas may well need to be reframed to be understood, as Jung did with Archetypes (which are invisible themselves, but which give 'form' to Archetypal Images,' from visionary mandalas internally to crop circles externally).




To me it seems if you want to engage in abstract metaphysical reasoning about Platonic realms, where spooks like forms and essences may dwell, then you probably have to employ some form of medieval model containing ghostly realms beyond space-time created by definition and/or axiom.  However, if we want to consider our actual situation within space & time, including crop circles and allegedly 'haunted' houses, power spots, etc. it seems wiser to investigate by experiment those concrete events that can be observed within space and time.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Philosophy vs Meditation [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #21211670 - 02/01/15 03:45 PM (9 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

Lakefingers said:
Quote:

CosmicJoke said:
What first comes to my mind when associating Plato with meditation is the parable of the prisoners in the cave, who accept shadows as reality.  Perhaps meditation could be considered an attempt to go beyond naive realism, that one's perception is reality.  Zen Buddhists have the koan "Who is the Master who makes the grass green?" I suspect meditating might give you some insight into both.




This isn't Plato, but like redgreenvines, you're free to make things up because it makes you seem like a friendly, flexible guy.




My intention was not to say that Plato's parable is equivalent to Zen, only both seem to be concerned with seeing beyond conventional reality, perhaps one through epistemological musings and metaphysics, and the other though meditative experimentation.

As a reminder for all from Wiki regarding the Allegory of the Cave:

"Plato has Socrates describe a gathering of people who have lived chained to the wall of a cave all of their lives, facing a blank wall. The people watch shadows projected on the wall by things passing in front of a fire behind them, and begin to designate names to these shadows. The shadows are as close as the prisoners get to viewing reality. He then explains how the philosopher is like a prisoner who is freed from the cave and comes to understand that the shadows on the wall do not make up reality at all, as he can perceive the true form of reality rather than the mere shadows seen by the prisoners."

IMO, the concept of naive realism is fitting when thinking about the allegory of prisoners who accept shadows as reality.

"Naïve realism, also known as direct realism or common sense realism, is a philosophy of mind rooted in a theory of perception that claims that the senses provide us with direct awareness of the external world. In contrast, some forms of idealism assert that no world exists apart from mind-dependent ideas and some forms of skepticism say we cannot trust our senses."

I think both Plato an Zen Buddhists deal with the inaccuracy of perception, but come to very different conclusions.  From what I understand of Zen philosophy, it reject metaphysics, and of what I understand of meditation, the human nervous system is an instrument, one that can be dialed, but what is observed is true relative only to the instrument and where that instrument is located in space-time -there is no vantage point from which real reality can be seen, as we're all looking from our own point of view.  Zen Buddhist might say the grass appears green to me.

Some more from Wiki regarding Plato and Form:

"The Forms are expounded upon in Plato's dialogues and general speech, in that every object or quality in reality has a form: dogs, human beings, mountains, colors, courage, love, and goodness. Form answers the question, "What is that?" Plato was going a step further and asking what Form itself is. He supposed that the object was essentially or "really" the Form and that the phenomena were mere shadows mimicking the Form; that is, momentary portrayals of the Form under different circumstances. The problem of universals – how can one thing in general be many things in particular – was solved by presuming that Form was a distinct singular thing but caused plural representations of itself in particular objects. For example, Parmenides states, "Nor, again, if a person were to show that all is one by partaking of one, and at the same time many by partaking of many, would that be very astonishing. But if he were to show me that the absolute one was many, or the absolute many one, I should be truly amazed."[13]:p129 Matter is considered particular in itself."

I think this is quite peculiar, that notion that the color green exists in Form, it directly opposes Zen Buddhism or even what a physicist might say,  that colors exist in very much the same way that art and love exist, they can be perceived, and other people will generally understand you if you talk about them, but they don't really exist in an "out in the world" or some transcendental Reality with a capital R kind of way.  There is a set of wavelengths of light that most people in the world would agree is "green", however that doesn't mean that the light itself is green, it just means that most human brains equipped with human eyes will label it as green.  But according to Plato, an Artichoke, asparagus, avacodos, ferns, a preying mantis, moss, a pine tree, all of which may differ in hue, chroma, or lightness, are all green in Form or essence, somewhere beyond 3d space and time :shrug:.


Edited by CosmicJoke (02/02/15 03:33 AM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Philosophy vs Meditation [Re: Lakefingers]
    #21211853 - 02/01/15 04:10 PM (9 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

Lakefingers said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Cogitation is often declared to be out of scope of meditation, while some definitions equal meditation to cogitation, while insight meditation (vipasana) includes the awareness of all mental contents including cogitation.

That is to say,
one may use, as object of non-reactive attention, the process of cogitation including non-reactive observance of mental objects transforming during the cogitative process.

That is to say,
one may meditate with detachment with the object being thinking through something.
keeping up the detachment even when some excitement evolves with eureka flash moments.




Once again you imply a position I don't hold and discuss that instead of what I wrote.

To get back on topic, OP is confused and presupposes a misreading of Plato in order to fit it into loose concept of "a place from which knowledge arises." Plato's ideal world is not place that can be visited.

If you want to freely play around with Plato's terminology and poetically reinterpret it then do so, but don't call it Plato and don't post it here expecting me to accept it just because it sounds cool.




I am representing here that meditation can encompass the flow of ideas as well as other phenomena. this may not be what you were thinking, but as a public forum, it is permitted to comment or reply with ones thoughts and observations, however tangential to the OP's intention.

the title does not say
Philosophy vs Meditation, only comment what Lakefingers likes to read

it seems pretty open.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Philosophy vs Meditation [Re: Lakefingers]
    #21212707 - 02/01/15 06:37 PM (9 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

Lakefingers said:
As usual you cite a wide range of reading which is easy to do at the level you or I have achieved academically, but a paraphrase of psychological misreadings and inferences about tangential musings do not demonstrate the point and only serve to conceal that you're off-topic. But yes, you're free to incorporate Plato into your meditation and ponderings in whatever field and whatever way you like.





You consistently attempt to criticize me for "misreading." :lol: You do hold the unique position of making these kind of claims. Of course your vague criticisms are just that - vague. I am decidedly not off-topic. You should decide whether you wish to engage the issue or not, and 'I' am not the issue. I am confident that with regard to the Jungian school, my statements are not mere "tangential musings," not by a long-shot.  But, if you prefer not to engage in banter about actual issues, then please say so publicly or privately, but by all means, be clear about it! If you prefer that I not respond to you on these forums, why not just ask? I'm a considerate individual, and I certainly do not wish to get you upset. Of course, if you do not follow my thinking, feel free to ask for clarification if you're up to it. Being dismissive is simply feigned condescension IMO. :shrug:


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Philosophy vs Meditation [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #21212776 - 02/01/15 06:48 PM (9 years, 23 days ago)

"To me it seems if you want to engage in abstract metaphysical reasoning about Platonic realms, where spooks like forms and essences may dwell, then you probably have to employ some form of medieval model containing ghostly realms beyond space-time created by definition and/or axiom.  However, if we want to consider our actual situation within space & time, including crop circles and allegedly 'haunted' houses, power spots, etc. it seems wiser to investigate by experiment those concrete events that can be observed within space and time."

I am all in favor of scientific, empirical observation, and experimentation when possible. The problem now is the same problem that has always been - when the existing paradigms do not account for a phenomenon in question. When the model of Four Humors did not sufficiently explain, predict, or allow for cure in medical matters, a new paradigm needed to arise. The germ hypothesis turned out to be just such a correct paradigm for a majority of disease processes. Yet, even so, there are additional diseases that even this model does not account for.  Atoms are real, but our models for describing even atoms have changed. Science is capable in space-time where quantification can occur. But if there are types of phenomena which can be experienced, yet not controlled for, or quantified due to the limitations of our instrumentation which have been designed based on current paradigms, then we're back where we started in the discussion. Sometimes one has to be content to be a Phenomenologist until a new paradigm can be arrived at. Only then can experiments be set up. But in parapsychological phenomena, which are not under the control of the ego, and hence defy a controlled experimental model, what else can one do except observe and record as many variables as one can think of that co-occur with a given phenomenon? :shrug:


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Philosophy vs Meditation [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #21213014 - 02/01/15 07:32 PM (9 years, 23 days ago)

it's like fighting a clown who declares your cape is too bright when you are not wearing a cape, people can only listen to false accusations until it is just tedious.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Philosophy vs Meditation [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #21213360 - 02/01/15 08:38 PM (9 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
I am all in favor of scientific, empirical observation, and experimentation when possible. The problem now is the same problem that has always been - when the existing paradigms do not account for a phenomenon in question. When the model of Four Humors did not sufficiently explain, predict, or allow for cure in medical matters, a new paradigm needed to arise. The germ hypothesis turned out to be just such a correct paradigm for a majority of disease processes. Yet, even so, there are additional diseases that even this model does not account for.  Atoms are real, but our models for describing even atoms have changed. Science is capable in space-time where quantification can occur. But if there are types of phenomena which can be experienced, yet not controlled for, or quantified due to the limitations of our instrumentation which have been designed based on current paradigms, then we're back where we started in the discussion. Sometimes one has to be content to be a Phenomenologist until a new paradigm can be arrived at. Only then can experiments be set up. But in parapsychological phenomena, which are not under the control of the ego, and hence defy a controlled experimental model, what else can one do except observe and record as many variables as one can think of that co-occur with a given phenomenon? :shrug:




For starters, you can interpret your yet to be explained experience through multiple models, including the skeptic and physicalist models, which I know bore you, but also have to be considered as potentially valid.



--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


Edited by CosmicJoke (02/02/15 02:29 AM)


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InvisibleRahz
Alive Again
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Registered: 11/10/05
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Re: Philosophy vs Meditation [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #21214019 - 02/01/15 10:45 PM (9 years, 23 days ago)

I think insight meditation is philosophy. Other forms of meditation are preparatory, addressing emotional issues, learning focus, emptying the mind, etc. There's no point at which one begins and the other ends. The idea is that insight is more keen with focus, an empty mind, fewer emotional issues.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Philosophy vs Meditation [Re: Rahz]
    #21214661 - 02/02/15 04:43 AM (9 years, 22 days ago)

it is that synthesis in real time,
though not, at its core, a dialogue which pings and pongs along, while the heart of philosophy is rigorous banter.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Edited by redgreenvines (02/02/15 04:54 AM)


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Philosophy vs Meditation [Re: leery11]
    #21219444 - 02/03/15 03:22 AM (9 years, 21 days ago)

"what is the point of philosophy? "

indeed


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Philosophy vs Meditation [Re: laughingdog]
    #21219584 - 02/03/15 05:26 AM (9 years, 21 days ago)

orientation


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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