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SeaShrooms
The dude



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Re: the prevalence of right-wing ideology (and ideologues) on the shroomery [Re: zappaisgod]
#21195663 - 01/29/15 09:40 AM (9 years, 1 day ago) |
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It's literally comparing actual statistics between states that did raise their minimum wage, and those that didn't, are we reading the same article?
-------------------- The life of a condemned soul is hatred.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: the prevalence of right-wing ideology (and ideologues) on the shroomery [Re: zappaisgod]
#21195677 - 01/29/15 09:43 AM (9 years, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
The vast majority of the poor workers will be utterly unaffected since most of them already make more than the proposed minimum wage.
Source?
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: the prevalence of right-wing ideology (and ideologues) on the shroomery [Re: The Ecstatic]
#21195728 - 01/29/15 09:56 AM (9 years, 1 day ago) |
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https://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/about/overview/
Quote:
In 2013, there were 45.3 million people in poverty. For the third consecutive year, the number of people in poverty at the national level was not statistically different from the previous year’s estimate.
From My CBO link 16.5 million people will be affected by an increase in minimum wage.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: the prevalence of right-wing ideology (and ideologues) on the shroomery [Re: zappaisgod]
#21196389 - 01/29/15 12:20 PM (9 years, 1 day ago) |
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Are those 45.3 million people all workers?
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millzy


Registered: 05/12/10
Posts: 12,404
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Re: the prevalence of right-wing ideology (and ideologues) on the shroomery [Re: zappaisgod] 1
#21197215 - 01/29/15 02:40 PM (9 years, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: Do you know who fucks the small business owner? The government. End corporate taxation entirely. Then the big guys can't "evade". That is not what they do, by the way, tax evasion is a crime. Tax avoidance is not. Why does the US government think it should get a slice of profits multi-nationals make in other countries?
big business fucks small business by not paying its share in taxes, which forces the government to tax everyone else. offshore tax shelters, such as the ones used by multinationals, are a reprehensible means of making profits. and it doesn't matter how you label it because, at the end of the day, these companies are stealing from the american people through loopholes (that they have, coincidentally, helped create). closing those loopholes and forcing multinationals to pay their share in taxes would alleviate the tax burden of the majority, including small business owners. our government has the means the accomplish this. and in doing so our government would have access to pathways by which they can acquire money to make vast improvements and enact much needed, sweeping reforms. but because the line between the public and private sector is virtually nonexistent, doing so would not serve the interests of anyone in power.
Quote:
Neither labor nor electricity is infrastructure. I can assure you that every business owner bitches about the cost of energy when it reaches levels like two years ago.
i'm not going to argue semantics here with you. my point was that most, if not all, businesses require electricity as well as labor in order to function. i'm sure owners complain about electricity, rent etc. and while wise owners will surely take measures to reduce their costs, cutting corners on labor carries very heavy ethical baggage because it negatively affects human lives. people come before profits.
Quote:
And your injection of race is dishonest and inflammatory. Do you know that we still have vestigial policies in government that assert the concept of white (and male) supremacy? Minority set asides for contracts and affirmative action in hiring and admissions.
my analogy (rather than my insinuation, as you seem to suggest) about race is spot on. let me elaborate.
in the antebellum south, one of the ways that the planter aristocracy was able to morally justify slavery was by convincing poor white farmers that they were just like them, and the means by which they achieved that was via the doctrine of white supremacy. the southern aristocracy controlled the schools as well as the media, and it was also criminal to speak out against slavery in certain states, so indoctrination was a fairly easy task back then. now, to be clear, i'm not saying that the planters invented racism in order to secure approval of the primary tool of their industry. racism was by no means exclusive to the american south, and one could argue that racism, to at least some extent, is just part of the human condition. but the planters certainly used racism as a tool for thought control. as you've said, racism persists in our public institutions. a big part of why that is in this country is because of pre-civil war planter propaganda.
in a strikingly similar way, these pernicious attitudes regarding the question of who deserves the opportunity to pursue prosperity have proliferated from the ideas and practices of the powerful few who truly own the country. only in this case, instead of racism, the means for achieving thought control is an appeal to greed: the whole "pulling yourself up by your bootstraps" line of rhetoric appeals to the greed of many, including small business owners who seem to be utterly convinced that they are just like the 1%'ers. moreover, it promotes a worldview that ultimately benefits the few at the top because it engenders contempt for "low level" workers, thereby garnering public approval of practices (e.g. underpaying workers) that would otherwise be considered beyond reproach. so going back to my original point, in the same way that we have been struggling with racism for centuries, we will struggle with neoliberalism for centuries, barring that it doesn't lead us quickly into bloody, worldwide revolution, global environmental crises, or both, or something even worse.
also, it's highly amusing that you label me a communist on the grounds that i don't wish to live under an oligarchy that steals from the public and minimizes individual freedom via the erosion of opportunity.
Edited by millzy (01/29/15 07:23 PM)
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The Ecstatic
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Re: the prevalence of right-wing ideology (and ideologues) on the shroomery [Re: millzy]
#21197241 - 01/29/15 02:44 PM (9 years, 1 day ago) |
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excellent post
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SeaShrooms
The dude



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Re: the prevalence of right-wing ideology (and ideologues) on the shroomery [Re: The Ecstatic]
#21197502 - 01/29/15 03:35 PM (9 years, 1 day ago) |
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Absolutely agree with everything millzy said, it also explains the revisionist history agenda that blacks made up most of the slave population, which everyone knows is utter crap now.
-------------------- The life of a condemned soul is hatred.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: the prevalence of right-wing ideology (and ideologues) on the shroomery [Re: SeaShrooms]
#21197514 - 01/29/15 03:37 PM (9 years, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
SeaShrooms said: Absolutely agree with everything millzy said, it also explains the revisionist history agenda that blacks made up most of the slave population, which everyone knows is utter crap now.
Are you talking about America or world history?
Actually don't answer that, we already have a race thread.
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SeaShrooms
The dude



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Re: the prevalence of right-wing ideology (and ideologues) on the shroomery [Re: The Ecstatic]
#21197550 - 01/29/15 03:46 PM (9 years, 23 hours ago) |
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I posted a link in one of these threads, but ya lets not derail this.
-------------------- The life of a condemned soul is hatred.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: the prevalence of right-wing ideology (and ideologues) on the shroomery [Re: zappaisgod]
#21199201 - 01/29/15 09:48 PM (9 years, 17 hours ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: Same response as before:
According to the CBO, if you raise the minimum wage by 40%, total employment falls by 0.3%. I say let the 0.3% go home (or work harder) so that 25% of the population gets a comfortable pay increase. That 25% can then help grow the economy.
Are you insane? You think 25% of the population makes between the current minimum and the proposed minimum?
No, I didn't say that. I said "25% of the population gets a comfortable pay increase." That includes people making more than the minimum wage. If I'm making $10.90/hr today (50% more than minimum), and the minimum wage is increased from $7.25 to $10.10, I'm going to get a nice pay increase as well. Maybe not quite 50% more than the new minimum, but a lot more than $10.90. You don't get that???
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: The demographic that spends the largest percent of it's income on food is the poor. And if the poor make 10% more money, they can EASILY afford to pay 4% more for food. Are you bad at math, or just trying to trick others reading this?
The vast majority of the poor workers will be utterly unaffected since most of them already make more than the proposed minimum wage.
See previous response. The bottom 25% get a pay increase.
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: I really like how you cavalierly brush of the loss of employment of half a million workers. You're real compassionate.
No, I said "if you raise the minimum wage by 40%, total employment falls by 0.3%." I love how you try to make 0.3% seem more than it really is.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: the prevalence of right-wing ideology (and ideologues) on the shroomery [Re: zappaisgod] 1
#21199351 - 01/29/15 10:22 PM (9 years, 17 hours ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: Yes, we know you're a commie.
Ooh, he called you a commie! In his mind he thinks he's already won the debate.
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zappaisgod said: Do you know who fucks the small business owner? The government. End corporate taxation entirely. Then the big guys can't "evade".
Bernie Sanders once proposed eliminating corporate taxes entirely in exchange for increasing the Capital Gains tax. I think it's a great idea!
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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starfire_xes
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Re: the prevalence of right-wing ideology (and ideologues) on the shroomery [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 1
#21199488 - 01/29/15 11:04 PM (9 years, 16 hours ago) |
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If the government taxes, say a bread company, 5 cents a loaf of bread, and the loaf costs is 50 cents a loaf sold, that is a 10 percent tax. Now, that is a tax on say, The Tasty Bread Company?
Did you just tax that evil corporation 10 percent? No. You just taxed the consumers who buy a loaf of bread 10 percent.
That's the beauty of taxing evil corporations. In the minds of the Sheeple the Government is being a Hero and fucking those villians, but what's really happening is they are taxing the middle class and poor people who buy bread with a hidden 10 percent tax.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: the prevalence of right-wing ideology (and ideologues) on the shroomery [Re: starfire_xes]
#21199553 - 01/29/15 11:21 PM (9 years, 16 hours ago) |
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Quote:
starfire_xes said: If the government taxes, say a bread company, 5 cents a loaf of bread, and the loaf costs is 50 cents a loaf sold, that is a 10 percent tax. Now, that is a tax on say, The Tasty Bread Company?
Did you just tax that evil corporation 10 percent? No. You just taxed the consumers who buy a loaf of bread 10 percent.
I don't know if your reply was meant to be directed at me or not, but I thought I just said eliminating corporate taxes was a great idea.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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SeaShrooms
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Re: the prevalence of right-wing ideology (and ideologues) on the shroomery [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#21200546 - 01/30/15 08:15 AM (9 years, 7 hours ago) |
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Of course, the government is capable of controlling inflation, as they do with certain major commodities.
-------------------- The life of a condemned soul is hatred.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: the prevalence of right-wing ideology (and ideologues) on the shroomery [Re: millzy]
#21202288 - 01/30/15 12:58 PM (9 years, 2 hours ago) |
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Quote:
millzy said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said: Do you know who fucks the small business owner? The government. End corporate taxation entirely. Then the big guys can't "evade". That is not what they do, by the way, tax evasion is a crime. Tax avoidance is not. Why does the US government think it should get a slice of profits multi-nationals make in other countries?
big business fucks small business by not paying its share in taxes, which forces the government to tax everyone else. offshore tax shelters, such as the ones used by multinationals, are a reprehensible means of making profits. and it doesn't matter how you label it because, at the end of the day, these companies are stealing from the american people through loopholes (that they have, coincidentally, helped create). closing those loopholes and forcing multinationals to pay their share in taxes would alleviate the tax burden of the majority, including small business owners. our government has the means the accomplish this. and in doing so our government would have access to pathways by which they can acquire money to make vast improvements and enact much needed, sweeping reforms. but because the line between the public and private sector is virtually nonexistent, doing so would not serve the interests of anyone in power.
I've got a better idea. Stop taxing corporations entirely. Get rid of capital gains taxes. Tax only personal income. Simple. Efficient. Effective. And a competitive advantage on the global market. Quote:
Quote:
Neither labor nor electricity is infrastructure. I can assure you that every business owner bitches about the cost of energy when it reaches levels like two years ago.
i'm not going to argue semantics here with you. my point was that most, if not all, businesses require electricity as well as labor in order to function. i'm sure owners complain about electricity, rent etc. and while wise owners will surely take measures to reduce their costs, cutting corners on labor carries very heavy ethical baggage because it negatively affects human lives. people come before profits.
People are the ones the profits go to. You just favor one class of people over another. If I pay my employees more and the company makes the same money than I make less. Am I less of a person in your eyes because I own the company and hire people? I am irreplaceable and can easily find other workers. They get paid no matter what. I only get paid if I make a profit. The risk is all my mine. If there is any reward to be had I should be the one getting it. Of course I do give bonuses depending on the year I've had. Good year bonuses. Shit year? Sorry, have a turkey for Christmas.Quote:
Quote:
And your injection of race is dishonest and inflammatory. Do you know that we still have vestigial policies in government that assert the concept of white (and male) supremacy? Minority set asides for contracts and affirmative action in hiring and admissions.
my analogy (rather than my insinuation, as you seem to suggest) about race is spot on. let me elaborate.
in the antebellum south, one of the ways that the planter aristocracy was able to morally justify slavery was by convincing poor white farmers that they were just like them, and the means by which they achieved that was via the doctrine of white supremacy. the southern aristocracy controlled the schools as well as the media, and it was also criminal to speak out against slavery in certain states, so indoctrination was a fairly easy task back then. now, to be clear, i'm not saying that the planters invented racism in order to secure approval of the primary tool of their industry. racism was by no means exclusive to the american south, and one could argue that racism, to at least some extent, is just part of the human condition. but the planters certainly used racism as a tool for thought control. as you've said, racism persists in our public institutions. a big part of why that is in this country is because of pre-civil war planter propaganda.
Utter nonsense. There is not a person alive today who has any clue about antebellum planter propaganda and I doubt there was much of that even then anyway.Quote:
in a strikingly similar way, these pernicious attitudes regarding the question of who deserves the opportunity to pursue prosperity have proliferated from the ideas and practices of the powerful few who truly own the country. only in this case, instead of racism, the means for achieving thought control is an appeal to greed: the whole "pulling yourself up by your bootstraps" line of rhetoric appeals to the greed of many, including small business owners who seem to be utterly convinced that they are just like the 1%'ers. moreover, it promotes a worldview that ultimately benefits the few at the top because it engenders contempt for "low level" workers, thereby garnering public approval of practices (e.g. underpaying workers) that would otherwise be considered beyond reproach. so going back to my original point, in the same way that we have been struggling with racism for centuries, we will struggle with neoliberalism for centuries, barring that it doesn't lead us quickly into bloody, worldwide revolution, global environmental crises, or both, or something even worse.
So much ignorance here. Firstly, a lot of small business owners are in the 1% It isn't that much. It's less than $400K. There is no such thing as underpaying workers. If they don't like the pay they can work somewhere else. I'll believe in the global climate crisis when the people who are scaring us act like it's real. Quote:
also, it's highly amusing that you label me a communist on the grounds that i don't wish to live under an oligarchy that steals from the public and minimizes individual freedom via the erosion of opportunity.
The oligarchy that steals from the public is the government that redistributes wealth from the successful and gives it to the failures and ne'erdowells. I label you a communist because you seem to espouse the from each according to his ability to each according to his needs mentality. Fuck that shit.
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millzy


Registered: 05/12/10
Posts: 12,404
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Re: the prevalence of right-wing ideology (and ideologues) on the shroomery [Re: zappaisgod]
#21203394 - 01/30/15 05:02 PM (8 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: People are the ones the profits go to. You just favor one class of people over another. If I pay my employees more and the company makes the same money than I make less. Am I less of a person in your eyes because I own the company and hire people? I am irreplaceable and can easily find other workers. They get paid no matter what. I only get paid if I make a profit. The risk is all my mine. If there is any reward to be had I should be the one getting it. Of course I do give bonuses depending on the year I've had. Good year bonuses. Shit year? Sorry, have a turkey for Christmas.
i side with the people who are getting fucked. you side with only yourself. this seems to perfectly align with my claim that many business owners have lost sight of the bigger picture due to succumbing to short-sighted greed.
Quote:
Utter nonsense. There is not a person alive today who has any clue about antebellum planter propaganda and I doubt there was much of that even then anyway.
your ignorance of history is unfortunate, but it is a reasonably accurate comparison. to be fair though, neoliberalism is probably worse than racism because it has had such a larger impact on the global stage, and will continue to do so for a long time until people do something about it.
Quote:
So much ignorance here. Firstly, a lot of small business owners are in the 1% It isn't that much. It's less than $400K. There is no such thing as underpaying workers. If they don't like the pay they can work somewhere else. I'll believe in the global climate crisis when the people who are scaring us act like it's real.
the wealthiest people in the country number less than 20, if i'm not mistaken. that's who the 1% is, not the income bracket you've named. i'll once again avoid an argument regarding semantics here because our definitions of the 1% are obviously different. and again, i am sorry about your ignorance of the realities of climate change.
Quote:
The oligarchy that steals from the public is the government that redistributes wealth from the successful and gives it to the failures and ne'erdowells. I label you a communist because you seem to espouse the from each according to his ability to each according to his needs mentality. Fuck that shit.
if that's your understanding of my position as well as communism, again i can only express pity for your ignorance, and you've revealed much of it today, so i'm really really sorry. it is clear that we can't reach an agreement on this topic, so all i can give you is my condolences.
-------------------- I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger
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zappaisgod
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Re: the prevalence of right-wing ideology (and ideologues) on the shroomery [Re: millzy]
#21203491 - 01/30/15 05:23 PM (8 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
millzy said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said: People are the ones the profits go to. You just favor one class of people over another. If I pay my employees more and the company makes the same money than I make less. Am I less of a person in your eyes because I own the company and hire people? I am irreplaceable and can easily find other workers. They get paid no matter what. I only get paid if I make a profit. The risk is all my mine. If there is any reward to be had I should be the one getting it. Of course I do give bonuses depending on the year I've had. Good year bonuses. Shit year? Sorry, have a turkey for Christmas.
i side with the people who are getting fucked. you side with only yourself. this seems to perfectly align with my claim that many business owners have lost sight of the bigger picture due to succumbing to short-sighted greed.
Who's getting fucked? The people with jobs? Quote:
Quote:
Utter nonsense. There is not a person alive today who has any clue about antebellum planter propaganda and I doubt there was much of that even then anyway.
your ignorance of history is unfortunate, but it is a reasonably accurate comparison. to be fair though, neoliberalism is probably worse than racism because it has had such a larger impact on the global stage, and will continue to do so for a long time until people do something about it.
It has had no impact because it has never been practiced but your continued whine about it firmly establishes your commie credentials.Quote:
Quote:
So much ignorance here. Firstly, a lot of small business owners are in the 1% It isn't that much. It's less than $400K. There is no such thing as underpaying workers. If they don't like the pay they can work somewhere else. I'll believe in the global climate crisis when the people who are scaring us act like it's real.
the wealthiest people in the country number less than 20, if i'm not mistaken. that's who the 1% is, not the income bracket you've named. i'll once again avoid an argument regarding semantics here because our definitions of the 1% are obviously different. and again, i am sorry about your ignorance of the realities of climate change.
Are you so ignorant of math that you think 20 people constitute 1% of the population? Call me when Al Gore gives up his enormous estate and stops taking jets all over the worldQuote:
Quote:
The oligarchy that steals from the public is the government that redistributes wealth from the successful and gives it to the failures and ne'erdowells. I label you a communist because you seem to espouse the from each according to his ability to each according to his needs mentality. Fuck that shit.
if that's your understanding of my position as well as communism, again i can only express pity for your ignorance, and you've revealed much of it today, so i'm really really sorry. it is clear that we can't reach an agreement on this topic, so all i can give you is my condolences.
I'm OK with that
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



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Re: the prevalence of right-wing ideology (and ideologues) on the shroomery [Re: zappaisgod]
#21206017 - 01/31/15 09:21 AM (8 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: Who's getting fucked? The people with jobs?
When employees need Government subsidies, they are getting fucked and the taxpayer is getting fucked. The company certainly isn't.
Quote:
zappaisgod said: your continued whine about it firmly establishes your commie credentials.
Oooh, the commie word again. You love to show off your ignorance about what that means.
Quote:
zappaisgod said: Call me when Al Gore gives up his enormous estate and stops taking jets all over the world
How do you recommend Al Gore travel the world if not by jet???
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Seuss
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Re: the prevalence of right-wing ideology (and ideologues) on the shroomery [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#21211584 - 02/01/15 03:33 PM (8 years, 11 months ago) |
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> How do you recommend Al Gore travel the world if not by jet???
Video conference, perhaps?
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: the prevalence of right-wing ideology (and ideologues) on the shroomery [Re: Seuss]
#21211602 - 02/01/15 03:35 PM (8 years, 11 months ago) |
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Not a bad idea, but I wonder if that could have anywhere near the impact of an in person meeting - especially for someone at his level.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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