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Offlinehavatampa
South CoastPsychedelia

Registered: 10/07/03
Posts: 206
Loc: at Home with the Kids
Last seen: 12 years, 7 months
So, you want to talk taxes....
    #2120738 - 11/18/03 08:03 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

The top 14% of all households have 41% of the nation's income.

The top 1% have 10% of the nation's income.

The average before tax household income of the top 14% is $170,393 (And that number is brought way down by the "poorer" rich).

The average before tax income of the top 1% of all households is $465,000

The average before tax income of the rest of the nation's households is @ $40,000.

By the way, the average household has 2.58 people. That means each person in the average household in the top 14% has more money than the average entire family in the remaining 85% of the population.

The average before tax allocation to each person in a household in the top 1% is $180,000 while the average person in a household in the lowest 85% (did I just say LOWEST 85%?) of the population gets @$15,503 BEFORE taxes.

I'll tell you, these poor people. You give them jobs where they can work all day long to make you rich and then they turn around and ask for handouts because they can't afford to live. Now they complain about paying too much in taxes when the rich people pay WAY more than them!!! Oh well, Bush will fix all that.

Sources:
http://ferret.bls.census.gov/macro/032002/hhinc/new06_000.htm
http://ferret.bls.census.gov/macro/032002/hhinc/new01_001.htm


--------------------
There he goes, one of God's own prototypes--some kind of high powered mutant never even considered for mass production. Too wierd to live, too rare to die.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: So, you want to talk taxes.... [Re: havatampa]
    #2122345 - 11/19/03 12:03 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

are you poor?


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: So, you want to talk taxes.... [Re: havatampa]
    #2122407 - 11/19/03 12:25 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)


By the way, the average household has 2.58 people. That means each
person in the average household in the top 14% has more money than
the average entire family in the remaining 85% of the population.


So what? It is their money and they should be allowed to enjoy
it.


I'll tell you, these poor people. You give them jobs where they can
work all day long to make you rich and then they turn around and ask
for handouts because they can't afford to live.


Let us pity these poor people who have every right to go whereever
they want and do whatever they want; and that includes determining
where they work and for how much. Whereever you are you probably put
yourself there or let yourself remain there.

Pity them when they get more money from the government than they paid
in. Pity them when us REAL taxpayers pay to put roofs over their
heads and food in their mouths because they are too lazy or inept
with handling money to consistently support themselves.

Don't forget that the poor in developed free-market countries live
better than 95% of the rest of the world.


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Offlinehavatampa
South CoastPsychedelia

Registered: 10/07/03
Posts: 206
Loc: at Home with the Kids
Last seen: 12 years, 7 months
Re: So, you want to talk taxes.... [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2122892 - 11/19/03 03:46 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Is this the best rebuttal I am to receive?

I don't mean to be condescending but if you can't spell and have no apparent understanding of the basic rules of grammar, I have much difficulty placing validity in your interpretation of the economic situation in this country.

I have lived outside of the United States several times and am fully aware of the horrific living conditions that define poverty in many foreign areas. However, if you are breaking a man's arm and he cries out in pain, you cannot expect him to be silenced merely by pointing out that someone elsewhere is having both of their legs broken.

Should people be allowed to accumulate wealth? Of course. Should 85% of the population live at a level barely above poverty, as defined by that system, while the 15% echelon take 40% of all income and experience a standard of living astronomically incomparable to those without the blessings of circumstance, intelligence, talent, or passion? I would say not.

I think the wealthy can still be incredibly rich and live lavish lives, hopefully that they worked hard to attain, without creating such a dramatic disparity between the classes. There is a middle road.


--------------------
There he goes, one of God's own prototypes--some kind of high powered mutant never even considered for mass production. Too wierd to live, too rare to die.


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: So, you want to talk taxes.... [Re: havatampa]
    #2122995 - 11/19/03 04:21 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

havatampa said:
Is this the best rebuttal I am to receive?



Be thankful that you got back better than you gave.

Quote:

I don't mean to be condescending but if you can't spell and have no apparent understanding of the basic rules of grammar, I have much difficulty placing validity in your interpretation of the economic situation in this country.



I don't mean to be condescending, but you have no apparent understanding of the basic common sense being expressed.

Quote:

I have lived outside of the United States several times and am fully aware of the horrific living conditions that define poverty in many foreign areas.



But do you have any idea of the legal and cultural conditions which are necessary for the creation and maintenance of wealth? Hint: it's not redistribution that makes wealth. It boils down to a few things, keeping your word (contracts), respect of property rights, and personal responsibility and accountability for one's actions. The further away a legal system and a culture gets from these, the less prosperous will be the general populace. Please note: the U.S. has been drifting away from these concepts for a very long time.

Quote:

However, if you are breaking a man's arm and he cries out in pain, you cannot expect him to be silenced merely by pointing out that someone elsewhere is having both of their legs broken.



Lame analogy.

Quote:

Should 85% of the population live at a level barely above poverty, as defined by that system, while the 15% echelon take 40% of all income and experience a standard of living astronomically incomparable to those without the blessings of circumstance, intelligence, talent, or passion? I would say not.



Check your premises. Who defines 'poverty?' What is 'poverty' as defined in the 'system' you are referring to? Please define the nebulous terminology, 'astronomically incomparable.' If you don't like the situation that your fellow man is living in, create wealth so you can help him, encourage others to help him, teach those who are living below your arbitrary standards how to better their lives.

Quote:

There is a middle road.



Between principled non agression and legalized extortion? Between treating your fellow man as a sovereign vs. treating him as a national resource to be plundered at will?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Offlinehavatampa
South CoastPsychedelia

Registered: 10/07/03
Posts: 206
Loc: at Home with the Kids
Last seen: 12 years, 7 months
Re: So, you want to talk taxes.... [Re: Evolving]
    #2123032 - 11/19/03 04:35 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Why do I always sense anger in responses that reflect disagreement? Why the hostility? Why the negativity?

I am only advocating fairness and cooperation, while pointing out inequality and inconsistency.

I do indeed sense violent undercurrents. It is disturbing because it seems to be getting worse, groups increasingly polarized. I do not wish to cause anyone to suffer. Ironically the very same freedoms and blessings that once defined our great nation are continually being taken away by those most supported by individuals claiming that freedom and blessings should not be constricted.


--------------------
There he goes, one of God's own prototypes--some kind of high powered mutant never even considered for mass production. Too wierd to live, too rare to die.


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OfflineTheCow
Stranger

Registered: 10/28/02
Posts: 4,790
Last seen: 8 years, 11 months
Re: So, you want to talk taxes.... [Re: havatampa]
    #2123080 - 11/19/03 05:01 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

havatampa said:
Why do I always sense anger in responses that reflect disagreement? Why the hostility? Why the negativity?




"I don't mean to be condescending but if you can't spell and have no apparent understanding of the basic rules of grammar, I have much difficulty placing validity in your interpretation of the economic situation in this country."
Ha. Ill leave you to interpret that one.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: So, you want to talk taxes.... [Re: havatampa]
    #2123298 - 11/19/03 06:08 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)


I don't mean to be condescending but if you can't spell and have no
apparent understanding of the basic rules of grammar, I have much
difficulty placing validity in your interpretation of the economic
situation in this country.

I don't see any misspellings in my message. If there are it is a
rarity. I am usually an impeccable speller.

As I look back on my message, I do observe that it was not crafted
very well. I will strive to do better in the future. I do believe
however that my main points were very apparent.


However, if you are breaking a man's arm and he cries out in pain,
you cannot expect him to be silenced merely by pointing out that
someone elsewhere is having both of their legs broken.

How are the poor "coerced" in this country? How are the poor
having their "arms broken" as you put it?


Should people be allowed to accumulate wealth? Of course. Should 85%
of the population live at a level barely above poverty,


Barely above poverty? Are you saying that 85% of the population
of America is barely surviving?? I'm sorry, but I do not
see it that way at all. The poorest of the poor in this country
have shelter, food, clothes, and electricity. That is much
more than "barely surviving".


I think the wealthy can still be incredibly rich and live lavish
lives, hopefully that they worked hard to attain, without creating
such a dramatic disparity between the classes.


Now we get down to what you are really thinking. You do not seem
to be concerned with what the American poor are actually experiencing
(which is a very good lifestyle in comparison to the rest of the
world). What bothers you is the disparity between the classes.
It bothers you that some have so much and others have not quite as
much. When you allow Man economic freedom, disparities will occur.
I see nothing wrong with that.


There is a middle road.


That middle road is taking some wealth away from people who have
accumulated it in fair trade, and giving it to other people. That
is socialism. I believe in very limited socialism(money for
education, care for the mentally retarded, etc..). However, I
believe that there is too much income redistribution by the
American government right now.


Edited by RandalFlagg (11/19/03 06:25 PM)


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Invisibledaussaulit
Forgetful

Registered: 08/06/02
Posts: 2,894
Loc: Earth
Re: So, you want to talk taxes.... [Re: havatampa]
    #2123597 - 11/19/03 08:32 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Most poor stay poor, and there are reasons. When the average joe wins the multi-million dollar lottery, there are a good chance that they will be bankrupt within the year. Its poor money management.


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Anonymous

Re: So, you want to talk taxes.... [Re: TheCow]
    #2123890 - 11/19/03 11:03 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

i didnt sense a hint of negativity in evolving's post. infact he always seems
somewhat emotionless..


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Offlineenimatpyrt
addict
Registered: 11/05/03
Posts: 498
Last seen: 13 years, 5 months
Re: So, you want to talk taxes.... [Re: havatampa]
    #2124454 - 11/20/03 08:05 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

havatampa said:
I don't mean to be condescending but if you can't spell and have no apparent understanding of the basic rules of grammar, I have much difficulty placing validity in your interpretation of the economic situation in this country.




I'm sure that the poor don't spell or know their grammar very well either. Quite a lame answer. The purpose of communication is to communicate.

Quote:


I have lived outside of the United States several times and am fully aware of the horrific living conditions that define poverty in many foreign areas. However, if you are breaking a man's arm and he cries out in pain, you cannot expect him to be silenced merely by pointing out that someone elsewhere is having both of their legs broken.




The majority of the poor in America would be kings in other nations. After living in India, Pakistan, Afghanistan, and many other Asian nations, among others, you realize that when the "poor" people in your country drive their used cars to the supermarket to buy food with food stamps, then return home to sit in their air conditioned / heated house and watch color, cable TV, they really aren't that "poor" after all.

Quote:


Should people be allowed to accumulate wealth? Of course. Should 85% of the population live at a level barely above poverty, as defined by that system, while the 15% echelon take 40% of all income and experience a standard of living astronomically incomparable to those without the blessings of circumstance, intelligence, talent, or passion? I would say not.




The only solution that I can think of, short of poor people actually working harder and making / saving money, would be to take money from the "rich". This would go against the first sentance in the aforementioned quote.

Quote:


I think the wealthy can still be incredibly rich and live lavish lives, hopefully that they worked hard to attain, without creating such a dramatic disparity between the classes. There is a middle road.




What would you consider a "happy balance"? I'd say a nation where the "poor" are as listed above, rather than the "poor" being the huddled masses seen in Veranasi India strikes a good balance.


--------------------
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.


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Offlineenimatpyrt
addict
Registered: 11/05/03
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Last seen: 13 years, 5 months
Re: So, you want to talk taxes.... [Re: enimatpyrt]
    #2124457 - 11/20/03 08:11 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

It seems to me that people talk about this issue without really narrowing it down. What DO the pro-"tax the rich heavily" parties think should be done with the extra revnue? From the things they mention, it should be paid as cash to "poor people". This is, I believe, one of the reasons that people are so against this position. If one were to say, for example, that the "rich" should be taxed a bit more to provide for universal health care, I'd still disagree with it, but at least it would be a sound policy. Giving the poor more money to buy more non-necessary goods (such as a nicer car, bigger house, better TV) isn't the solution. Maybe (and again, this isn't what I believe), but maybe giving that money to social programs that don't result in cash flowing to poor people, but instead result in basic benefits being opened to poor peole, would be a bit more acceptable.


--------------------
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.


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Offlinehavatampa
South CoastPsychedelia

Registered: 10/07/03
Posts: 206
Loc: at Home with the Kids
Last seen: 12 years, 7 months
Re: So, you want to talk taxes.... [Re: enimatpyrt]
    #2124926 - 11/20/03 01:25 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

"I don't mean to be condescending but if you can't spell and have no apparent understanding of the basic rules of grammar, I have much difficulty placing validity in your interpretation of the economic situation in this country."

I realize the inconsistency, and I apologize. I do not mean to be negative. It is illogical to attack the arguer and not the argument.

"The majority of the poor in America would be kings in other nations. After living in India, Pakistan, Afghanistan, and many other Asian nations, among others, you realize that when the "poor" people in your country drive their used cars to the supermarket to buy food with food stamps, then return home to sit in their air conditioned / heated house and watch color, cable TV, they really aren't that "poor" after all."

Shouldn't we also strive to improve their conditions rather than using that as a justification for perpetuating poverty in our own country?

"The only solution that I can think of, short of poor people actually working harder and making / saving money, would be to take money from the "rich". This would go against the first sentance in the aforementioned quote."

I do not feel that this goes against the statement that the accumulation of wealth is acceptable. But what conditions enabled the rich to become wealthy? Certainly the resources and population played a part. The security our state provides was integral as well. Should those who benefit most from what America provides not be expected to contribute the most to improving it? I don't advocate "giving" money to anyone. However there are certain programs such as public transportation, public healthcare, public education, and so on, that we can improve dramatically, without taxing ANYONE unfairly.


--------------------
There he goes, one of God's own prototypes--some kind of high powered mutant never even considered for mass production. Too wierd to live, too rare to die.


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Offlineenimatpyrt
addict
Registered: 11/05/03
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Last seen: 13 years, 5 months
Re: So, you want to talk taxes.... [Re: havatampa]
    #2124951 - 11/20/03 01:44 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

havatampa said:
"The majority of the poor in America would be kings in other nations. After living in India, Pakistan, Afghanistan, and many other Asian nations, among others, you realize that when the "poor" people in your country drive their used cars to the supermarket to buy food with food stamps, then return home to sit in their air conditioned / heated house and watch color, cable TV, they really aren't that "poor" after all."

Shouldn't we also strive to improve their conditions rather than using that as a justification for perpetuating poverty in our own country?




And how, praytell, would we accomplish this? I know! Since America's rich are so rich, we'll institute global welfare! Americas richest people will pay a flat rate of 99.999999% taxes. This will be enough money for everyonei n the world to ge a piece of the pie! Great! I just solved it!

Their isn't a "poverty" serious enough in this nation to require theft from the 'rich'.

Quote:


I do not feel that this goes against the statement that the accumulation of wealth is acceptable. But what conditions enabled the rich to become wealthy? Certainly the resources and population played a part. The security our state provides was integral as well. Should those who benefit most from what America provides not be expected to contribute the most to improving it?




If each person contribues the same percentage, aren't they contributing the same? Do the rich get better military protection? More access to NASA launches?

Quote:


I don't advocate "giving" money to anyone. However there are certain programs such as public transportation, public healthcare, public education, and so on, that we can improve dramatically, without taxing ANYONE unfairly.




If I don't use a service, I don't see a need to pay for it, especially if, due to my "fortune", I have elimintaed the need for it. You need to get a firm grasp of what taxes do and do not pay for. When you ride a bus, you pay a fare. That isn't a taxpayer funded initiative. As for public healthcare, that is a great example on both sides. If I have a great job, lets say I own a company, and I offer health benefits for my employees via my company. My company is charged 125$ a month per employee, but we only charge the employees 25$ per month. My company is giving money away to have a benefit that will entice people to work for me. I'd say that I'm paying into the healthcare thing right there. Also, if my money is enough to pay for healthcare for my family, that means that I'm not going to be using public healtcare. If I'm not using public healthcare, but I'm paying not only for public healthcare, but for my private healthcare, aren't I being made to pay twice for one service? Yes. The poor people aern't being made to pay twice, thus, due to my income, I am being penalized. That doesn't sound very fair to me.


--------------------
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.


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Offlinehavatampa
South CoastPsychedelia

Registered: 10/07/03
Posts: 206
Loc: at Home with the Kids
Last seen: 12 years, 7 months
Re: So, you want to talk taxes.... [Re: enimatpyrt]
    #2125067 - 11/20/03 02:37 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

"And how, praytell, would we accomplish this?"

Well, we could start by not exploiting the fact that they're poor.

"Do the rich get better military protection?"

Yes, the military is used to protect their companies.

"The poor people aern't being made to pay twice, thus, due to my income, I am being penalized. That doesn't sound very fair to me. "

Why don't you advocate a voucher system then? Or perhaps a combo of public/private that still would enable universal coverage.



--------------------
There he goes, one of God's own prototypes--some kind of high powered mutant never even considered for mass production. Too wierd to live, too rare to die.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: So, you want to talk taxes.... [Re: havatampa]
    #2125298 - 11/20/03 04:23 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)


Well, we could start by not exploiting the fact that they're poor.

American companies intentionally set up shop in other
countries because the people will work for less.

These countries were poor to begin with and they absolutely love it
when a new factory is opened on their soil. The citizens of these
countries work in those factories because they make more money there
than they could anywhere else.

These nation's governments and citizens welcome these factories
with open arms. How is that exploitation?


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Offlinehavatampa
South CoastPsychedelia

Registered: 10/07/03
Posts: 206
Loc: at Home with the Kids
Last seen: 12 years, 7 months
Re: So, you want to talk taxes.... [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2127159 - 11/21/03 01:05 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

American (and other nations') companies come into certain areas in less developed countries, set up shop and pull destitue workers from around the region to work for them. Of cours the workers are happy to work for them, they are starving because their country's economy is shot. As the workers gain more and become more organized, skilled, and educated, they will expect more from their employer. They may get more, but the company will constantly be looking to relocate if they feel their bottom line is threatened. If the people in the area have come to depend on the company, abandoning that which was just keeping them at a level where they could live and then the company relocates, say from Venezuala to China, the people in that area are fucked.

How is it not exploiting poverty? It doesn't matter if the unknowing locals percieve it initially as positive, companies are taking advantage of the fact that these people will work for 17 cents an hour to make foreign shareholders more wealthy. That's not fucking right.


--------------------
There he goes, one of God's own prototypes--some kind of high powered mutant never even considered for mass production. Too wierd to live, too rare to die.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: So, you want to talk taxes.... [Re: havatampa]
    #2127518 - 11/21/03 03:31 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)


If the people in the area have come to depend on the company,
abandoning that which was just keeping them at a level where they
could live and then the company relocates, say from Venezuala to
China, the people in that area are fucked.

Good point. If a foreign company becomes so enmeshed in the local
economy, it can be painful if that factory leaves. Believe me,
I know of this concept. I live in a dying industrial town. This
area used to be one of the most affluent and bustling in the
country. All the business have moved away however.


How is it not exploiting poverty? It doesn't matter if the unknowing
locals percieve it initially as positive, companies are taking
advantage of the fact that these people will work for 17 cents an
hour to make foreign shareholders more wealthy. That's not fucking
right.

These companies are paying more than the average person earns in
that country. This is an opportunity for these citizens if
they choose to take it. Watching out for your own bottom line
is a natural way of life. Why should companies pay them more than
they agree to work for?

Here's another thing to think of. Because people are paid less in
these other countries, the cost for goods and services are less. For
example, to buy a mansion in America would be millions of dollars.
A mansion in a less modern country is going to be much less.
So their 17 cents an hour is worth more than 17 cents as we think of
it.


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Offlinehavatampa
South CoastPsychedelia

Registered: 10/07/03
Posts: 206
Loc: at Home with the Kids
Last seen: 12 years, 7 months
Re: So, you want to talk taxes.... [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2127578 - 11/21/03 03:57 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I guarantee you, no matter how you slice it, 17 cents an hour is not equivalent to our national minimum wage in 99.9% of all economies, the world over.

Why not pay them what would be the equivalent to our minimum wage, in their economy, at least that would be somewhat fair.


--------------------
There he goes, one of God's own prototypes--some kind of high powered mutant never even considered for mass production. Too wierd to live, too rare to die.


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Anonymous

Re: So, you want to talk taxes.... [Re: havatampa]
    #2127586 - 11/21/03 04:00 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

for many reasons, a minimum wage is not good policy. you cannot make something worth more by setting a price floor on it. the only thing you do is cause surplusses and inefficiency. the minimum wage hurts most of the people it's intended to help.


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