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Offlines240779
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Grof's overview of psychedelic drugs
    #21207229 - 01/31/15 02:58 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

By and large, I have not been able to discover during the analyses of my data any distinct pharmacological effects of LSD in humans that would be constant and invariant and could therefore be considered drug specific. Thus, I consider LSD to be a powerful unspecific amplifier or catalyst of biochemical and physiological processes in the brain. It seems to create a situation of undifferentiated activation that facilitates the emergence of unconscious material from different levels of the personality. The richness as well as the unusual inter- and intraindividual variability of the LSD experience can thus be explained by the decisive participation of extrapharmacological factors, such as the personality of the subject and the structure of his unconscious, the personality of the therapist or sitter, and the set and the setting in all their complexity. The capacity of LSD and some other psychedelic drugs to exteriorize otherwise invisible phenomena and processes and make them the subject of scientific investigation gives these substances a unique potential as diagnostic instruments and as research tools for the exploration of the human mind. It does not seem inappropriate and exaggerated to compare their potential significance for psychiatry and psychology to that of the microscope for medicine or the telescope for astronomy.

Grof, Stanislav. 1975. Realms of the human unconscious: Observations from LSD research. New York: Viking Press

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Invisiblemoonrockmushy
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Re: Grof's overview of psychedelic drugs [Re: s240779]
    #21207274 - 01/31/15 03:10 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

I found this article to be quite extrapharmacological  :lecture:

I agree there is enormous potential, if only people in general could see it as something more than getting high.

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InvisibleSheekle
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Re: Grof's overview of psychedelic drugs [Re: s240779]
    #21207285 - 01/31/15 03:12 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Every time I take LSD I experience a notable increase in mucus production - often characterized by a distinct change in the tone of my voice, tendency towards coughing, and occasional forced deep breathing

I also experience a 5-fold increase in muscle tremors throughout my body

Muscle tenseness

Dilated pupils and glossed over eyeballs



ETC.

GROF IS WRONG


--------------------
"Ur cat died because he hated u" - Koods
"I hope JSB kicks your ass one day." - Vandago
"you are the biggest 'internet guy' I have ever come across"- Jokeshopbeard
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"Sheekle you cannot vile the dice of bullshit you have posted on this forum over the years, I like databases" - thelastoneleft
"or maybe i just come from a blood line of superior intelligence" - trees

R.I.P Kelsy, ?/?/?? - 6/11/16

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Invisiblemoonrockmushy
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Re: Grof's overview of psychedelic drugs [Re: Sheekle]
    #21207306 - 01/31/15 03:17 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Is that really what he was saying?  I honestly had a hard time understanding it, it is pretty wordy.  I don't think he specifically denied that it has physical effects.

I also get the mucous thing, but moreso with mushrooms.  I was never sure if it actually makes more mucous or if I was just more aware of it.

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OfflineMrBlueYoMind
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Re: Grof's overview of psychedelic drugs [Re: moonrockmushy]
    #21207332 - 01/31/15 03:26 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

I think psychedelics just make me more aware of my bodily functions rather than exacerbating them.  A main one I always had was feeling like it was harder to breath.  But realistically I smoked massive amounts of weed, especially blunts, and wasn't in very good shape.  The awareness of how my body had to work to intake oxygen led to me focusing on being healthier.  I never noticed muscle tremors from LSD or Mushrooms, but maybe some tension.  But that could also have been a manifestation of anxiousness and really been all in my head.  I would notice an occasional back pain the next day from some acid, but it was usually when I was sitting for most of the trip and trying to look/sit normal when in reality I was putting myself in awkward positions.


--------------------
Confucius say: He who sticks drugs in butthole has head up ass. 
EVOLUTION REQUIRES REPRODUCTION

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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: Grof's overview of psychedelic drugs [Re: Sheekle]
    #21207339 - 01/31/15 03:27 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Sheekle said:
Every time I take LSD I experience a notable increase in mucus production - often characterized by a distinct change in the tone of my voice, tendency towards coughing, and occasional forced deep breathing

I also experience a 5-fold increase in muscle tremors throughout my body

Muscle tenseness

Dilated pupils and glossed over eyeballs



ETC.

GROF IS WRONG



Yeah the quote definitely shows  it's age. In 1975 very little was known about neuropsychology. He is trying to say that because of the variability of LSD effects, the way it works is to simply catalyze already present but typically unmanifest brain activity so that is manifests. Today we have a quite specific understanding of the psychopharmacological properties of LSD with respect to its action on neurotransmitter receptor sites for serotonin, adrenalin, dopamine, etc. What we still don't understand is the causal connection between brain activity and experience- essentially every major theory contains some sort of homunculus doing the work.

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Invisiblebadchad
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Re: Grof's overview of psychedelic drugs [Re: s240779]
    #21207360 - 01/31/15 03:34 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Probably Grof didn't perform any well-controlled studies with systematic analyses of the effects.  With the right questionnaires, you can come across effects that are fairly consistent.

The 5-HT2A component is fairly easy to document (with an antagonist), however the subjective effects are indeed, quite difficult to capture.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436

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Offlines240779
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Re: Grof's overview of psychedelic drugs [Re: badchad]
    #21207380 - 01/31/15 03:40 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

badchad said:
The 5-HT2A component is fairly easy to document (with an antagonist), however the subjective effects are indeed, quite difficult to capture.




Um, is there even a difference between objective effects and subjective effects? What is this supposedly converse objective effect that you're talking about?

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Re: Grof's overview of psychedelic drugs [Re: s240779]
    #21207391 - 01/31/15 03:44 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Da2ra said:
Quote:

badchad said:
The 5-HT2A component is fairly easy to document (with an antagonist), however the subjective effects are indeed, quite difficult to capture.




Um, is there even a difference between objective effects and subjective effects? What is this supposedly converse objective effect that you're talking about?


objective effects of LSD:


LSD, due to its monoamine-like structure, primarily acts as an agonist of serotonin (5-HT) receptor proteins. More specifically, the psychedelic effects of LSD are attributed to it’s ability to activate the g-protein coupled (metabotropic) 5-HT-2A/2C receptors. Activation of these receptors results in the release of α, β, and δ g-protein subunits resulting from a conformational change in the receptor, which results in an exchange of GDP for GTP. Once activated, the g-proteins are able to activate adenylyl cyclase, resulting in the downstream phosphorylation of various proteins, and in some cases, the direct activation of ion channels for potassium (K+), sodium (Na+), and calcium (Ca2+).

Additionally, LSD acts as an agonist at a slew of other 5-HT receptors (5-HT-1A/1B/1D, 5-HT-2A/2C, 5-HT-5A, 5-HT-6 and 5-HT-7) as well as the D1 & D2 Dopamine (DA) receptors, and the α1 and α2-adrenergic receptors. This great variety of receptors may account for the variable nature of LSD’s activity, as many of these receptors exist in peripheral tissues, and when considered together, in nearly every region of the brain. Serotonin in particular is an immensely widespread neurotransmitter, participating in everything from the management of slow-pain mechanisms to vision, mood, appetite, memory, cognition and more. Disruptions in serotonergic tone are the most likely cause of LSD’s ability to produce alterations in all of these areas of consciousness, awareness, and general mental function, though activity at some of the non-serotonergic receptors likely mediates this activity in one way or another.

In the pre-frontal cortex (PFC), 5-HT-2A receptors are primarily localized in deep layer IV and layer V dendritic spines of pyramidal cells and interneurons, areas which have been implicated in the management of attention and consciousness. Throughout the PFC, LSD results in the release of glutamate, the primary excitatory neurotransmitter of the brain, which leads to increased excitatory post-synaptic potentials. Again, the PFC is implicated in many cognitive functions- including but not limited to- decision-making, situational interpretation and perception, and cognitive awareness. Increased activity in the PFC likely accounts for many of the cognitive and perceptual effects of LSD. A marked presence of these receptors in the thalamus, a center for nearly all sensory integration in the mammalian brain, likely accounts for alterations in responses to sensory and peripheral stimuli.

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Invisiblebadchad
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Re: Grof's overview of psychedelic drugs [Re: s240779]
    #21207393 - 01/31/15 03:44 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Da2ra said:
Um, is there even a difference between objective effects and subjective effects? What is this supposedly converse objective effect that you're talking about?




An objective effect would be something you can quantitatively measure.  For example, heart rate, blood pressure, pupil diameter etc.

A subjective effect is qualitative, such as "ego death", or feeling "happy". In modern research, questionnaires are used to objectify subjective effects.  For example, hallucinogen rating scales, mysticism scales etc.  These have subjects rate statements on a 5-point scale, for example.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436

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Re: Grof's overview of psychedelic drugs [Re: badchad]
    #21207533 - 01/31/15 04:19 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

@morrowasted and badchad, do you scientific guys have any insight into why DMT is so short compared to other psychedelics. fastandbulbous on Bluelight reports getting effects for one hour when intramuscularly injecting DMT.* IM DMT stands as a pure example, where its pharmacology is not modulated by an MAOI; and where its metabolism and removal by the body would not be as rapid as in smoking or intravenously injecting.


*http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/300006-The-Rebirth-of-the-low-dose-DMT-appreciation-thread!?p=4876549&viewfull=1#post4876549

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Invisiblebadchad
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Re: Grof's overview of psychedelic drugs [Re: badchad]
    #21207643 - 01/31/15 04:54 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

They have different half lives.  Simply put, DMT is broken down and metabolized rapidly, LSD is not.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436

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Offlines240779
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Re: Grof's overview of psychedelic drugs [Re: badchad]
    #21207739 - 01/31/15 05:20 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Psilocybin is alternately titled 4-PO-DMT. It's obviously very structurally similar to N,N-DMT. But yet why would the half lives be so different? Is there any molecular or biochemical insight into that question??

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Re: Grof's overview of psychedelic drugs [Re: morrowasted]
    #21259174 - 02/11/15 03:25 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

I just read morrowasted's thing. The question is do all these different areas that LSD stimulates account for substantially unique effects in individuals or is the primary effect of LSD what Grof is saying: unspecific amplification no matter who takes it. You might be able to find minor and consistent different physiological symptoms between LSD takers but that doesn't change the fact that each of those people is capable of experiencing the same type of varied psychedelic experience.

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