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DividedQuantum
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enlightenment and self
#21198705 - 01/29/15 07:59 PM (8 years, 11 months ago) |
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Enlightenment is said to entail the dissolution of self-consciousness. To me, this does not mean the dissolution of self itself. There is considerable ambiguity here. To say that the self doesn't exist at all, objectively, is a very popular thought. I'm not so sure this isn't a confusion. If one attains to the loftiest spiritual heights, and feels that their self has disappeared, well, who is there watching, and feeling?
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deff
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i think it's key in these discussions to thoroughly define what is meant by 'self' prior to analyzing if and how it exists. saying there is no individual self i don't think necessitates saying there is no individual awareness, but this depends on what is meant by 'self'
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Pope
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Re: enlightenment and self [Re: deff]
#21198786 - 01/29/15 08:16 PM (8 years, 11 months ago) |
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yes definition is key part^ also i think people often mean a self separate from experiences and actions and such. this is something im not sure about yet though, specially the 'who is there watching' bit, like depends on if consciousness is tied to the body or not, maybe things are just watching themselves, i dunno
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DividedQuantum
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Re: enlightenment and self [Re: deff]
#21198895 - 01/29/15 08:41 PM (8 years, 11 months ago) |
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Well deff, I'm not entirely sure what I really mean by "self." I tend to think along the lines that it is possible we are made up of both "false" and "true" selves, but I'm not sure if my true self is really objectively individual in any way, or not. And then I'm not sure how "soul" gets all wrapped up in things (but I am someone who thinks it does).
If you have any suggestions, I would be quite interested to hear them.
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deff
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yeah there's quite a lot of possibilities in regards to selfhood and the make-up of our beings
one way i think of it, is that the human experiencer-consciousness is not the deciding-agent-doer that initiates thoughts and actions, instead we as incarnate human experiencers have the false conception that we are also the deciding-agent (and that this illusion is intentional to necessitate the learning we go through in these lifetimes). the human experiencer, basically the realm of consciousness that is reading these words (or rather experiencing the reading of the words) has as its sole job to provide bare awareness for all activity in life. in this sense, i would agree that "we" (as the experiencer) are not the "doer" - and that through investigation we can shift gradually (or perhaps suddenly) to a stable realization of this, which would be a large aspect of 'liberation' - as then awareness would just rest effortlessly as itself, without the inner turmoil associated with identification.
but i disagree with the notion that there is no doer at all - just that we as the human experiencer are not the doer. the actual deciding agent of thoughts and actions is outside of our human awareness, though connected to us as another aspect of our greater being. this would be like the notion of the subconscious/unconscious - only I would say it plays a much more extensive role in agency than commonly asserted. it is my belief that when we die, we as the human experiencer merges back into union with this deciding agent and we come to the realization (or remembrance) that we played both roles simultaneously (creating content as the deciding agent and observing that content as the human experiencer). this also accounts for the idea that we are guided by spiritual beings throughout life (spirit guides, masters/teachers, and our higher selves [the 'parent' to our combined deciding-agent and human-experiencer soul]). these spiritual forces which guide our incarnation do so at the level of the deciding agent and usually not at the level of the human experiencer - which is why we are typically unconscious of any of this activity. but the guidance coming from these beings and higher aspects of our being work with the deciding agent to orchestrate events according to the lessons and overall plan we decided upon prior to beginning this incarnation. sometimes the human experiencing consciousness becomes aware of this guidance, and can experience communication with guides, the higher self, etc.
so i guess this is a bit lengthier of an possible explanation to things and also maybe too out there for most people. it's what i've gathered from communicating with my higher self (or at least experiencing the communication with my higher self ) there are many possibilities though, and life is certainly mysterious
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DividedQuantum
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Re: enlightenment and self [Re: deff]
#21199048 - 01/29/15 09:15 PM (8 years, 11 months ago) |
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No, that was fascinating, thank you very much for sharing. I indeed share some of your views. As far as the experiencer and its relationship to the doer, I feel things are a bit messier. I think, for the most part, and by that I mean 99.9%, the conscious human agent is not the doer. However, I do feel there are some actions (on the part of the doer) than can be initiated and sustained by the conscious experiencer a little of the time, in this realm. But I feel that conscious will, which I must emphasize is in no way free, makes up a very small portion of human experience. Almost to the point of sheer negligibility, were it not for the fact that I feel what I have said is in fact the case. Essentially, you are, in my view, almost totally correct. (But not totally ).
I also feel the role of the sub/unconscious plays a huge role, an almost monolithic one. To what degree do you feel that humans, in the current incarnation, can come to know this realm? I realize that, as you point out, we are constantly in contact with it, but really in a very unaware way. To what extent do you feel we can become aware of it, and what are the best methods, in your experience?
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deff
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yes that is very possible and I too am open to the idea that the human experiencer is more than just bare awareness and also has some interaction with content decisions, albeit like you said much outshadowed by the unconscious.
Quote:
To what degree do you feel that humans, in the current incarnation, can come to know this realm? I realize that, as you point out, we are constantly in contact with it, but really in a very unaware way. To what extent do you feel we can become aware of it, and what are the best methods, in your experience?
I feel we are always guided in life into the experiences we need for our soul's growth, evolution, and refining. for some, the necessary experiences may have very little to do with consciously engaging in self inquiry and spiritual topics, but this is totally okay (and what is wanted by that being at that time). one is not better than the other, it's all what is needed by the soul. so i think it's pretty rare to be exposed to all the answers and such while still embodied as this significantly subtracts from the learning potential for the human experiencer. we learn in this regard from illusion, much like watching a movie and becoming so engrossed that we feel we are the character, and through this, we learn lessons from the characters experiences.
but i do think it's part of our soul's development to seek more awareness of this and when the time is right, begin to open to more and more of it. in my experience the best method is meditation - something akin to vipassana meditation. not just resting meditation (like single pointedly resting the mind on an object) but rather investigative meditation, where we really sharpen and refine our awareness. this can also be done through the method of self-inquiry that Ramana Maharshi and others have taught - asking "who am i?" and really feeling for the truth of that, really honing in and cutting through layers of false identification.
at a certain point in one's spiritual development, it's possible to enter into samadhi (conscious absorption in the superconsciousness) which is a very profound experience and opens the door to much (seemingly infinite) awareness of existence and one's being, and from a much more profound non-conceptual, non-dual, all-at-once-it's-all-you type of experience. when you leave samadhi, and re-enter your regular human awareness, you have a memory of some of it but your human mind cannot contain the actual experience fully. but it's said that repeatedly entering samadhi will overtime dissolve the individual identification and behavioural tendencies etc - which would facilitate greater ongoing awareness of truth, until such a day when one attains sahaja samadhi where one merges the superconscious state of samadhi with the regular conscious state of non-meditation, and one is effectively always in the superconscious awareness while still functioning in life. this would be enlightenment
(this is one presentation of many of the spiritual path, this one coming from some hindu teachers mainly and is my current working model of things)
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deff
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oh another method you could use to open into more awareness of the unconscious and inner workings of your being could be lucid dreaming. after getting good at lucid dreaming and stability of the dream, you could use the dream as a means to investigate consciously. you could ask the dream (while in it) to show you certain truths, to meet the higher self, really anything. I haven't done this method myself, but read about something along these lines in a book Cosmo recommended here called Lucid Dreaming: Gateway to the Inner Self - I enjoyed the book (never got around to finishing it though) and perhaps it would be something that interests you
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Pope
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Re: enlightenment and self [Re: deff]
#21199179 - 01/29/15 09:42 PM (8 years, 11 months ago) |
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i have thought lately that there's both the doer and the observer 'parts' making a being up rather than just one or the other. i like to look to more basic things and functions sometimes to understand things, i think most things are just one or maybe a few expressions of the same thing in different ways. Like there's light and then there's 'matter' or whatnot, light is there but youd never know it if it didn't come across or interact with something, and matter is there, but youd never know it just the same if light doesnt hit it. but also i think matter things are pretty much just super concentrated light with all sorts of tangles, or light is pretty much matter 'stretched out' to its thinnest, or just all energy, whatever. as far as i understand also i think light is fully in space and in turn experiences no 'time', and a super concentrated matter thing would be fully in time, and i guess have no space. i think we like everything else have these things in some way to, there's illumination and also the things lit up, there's a 'void' of sorts and also experiences/chains of objects & causes, basic awareness and then clumped up complex deep understandings where you've put a lot of the awareness, and so on. but it's all one thing still imo, just in different 'directions' or 'dimensions' (like spacial/time dimensions, not fairy worlds or something)
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deff
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Re: enlightenment and self [Re: Pope]
#21199224 - 01/29/15 09:52 PM (8 years, 11 months ago) |
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yeah that sounds good Pope i agree that unified things can exist in seemingly separate parts, even seemingly contradictory parts, in different dimensions of itself. so i like to think that we are multi-dimensional beings, insofar as our greater being exists on many different levels simultaneously, and each level has it's own thing going on (such as human experience). the higher levels subsume the lower levels, and from a higher level you see the unity of the structure, but from a lower level it seems more like distinct structures and less unified. stuff like that
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Pope
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Re: enlightenment and self [Re: deff]
#21199493 - 01/29/15 11:05 PM (8 years, 11 months ago) |
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i don't know if there's higher or lower, maybe more horizontal, i find even that when im more fully near observant in my ways i start to want the more structured 'ego' world, and then when i get there i want back to the more detached observational world. i think the seeming vantage point aspect (like observation vs being & doing) painting the view of things towards unity or separation points to there being something else thats neither of them, and only appears separated or unified depending o nwhere youre at, just like creation and destruction are just the two sides of change and it just depends which one youre standing on.
they always have a bit in eachother to which imo implies it being something else different and on its own also, as youre either being observant or observing being, actually i cant even tell the difference really, and its usually a blend dependent on the 'frequencies' of them, they take in eachother constantly, imo one builds up and is the frame for the other to move through and grow from, but theyre just sides of the same thing and neither of them are actually the reality of it, only the appearances, & maybe really only what the reality of it 'sheds' off and rejects just like light bouncing off things, everything but the thing.
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saenchai
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Re: enlightenment and self [Re: deff] 1
#21199720 - 01/29/15 11:57 PM (8 years, 11 months ago) |
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I had an experience once that i accessed my higher self who was looking over my human life and into my future and saw that i was making a grave, naive mistake. I commented to myself mentally as i woke up: how silly this is that i am doing this, what a waste. Now i can see that my lower self will stay in this fear driven limited bullshit until it becomes so painfully apparent that change needs to happen that i am forced to change. Then i forgot it like a dream until i had taken that branch to its conclusion. I try to use these brief jumps in awareness as reference points to give me a greater degree of choice and perspective in my life but even that is limited as an intellectual exercise. You explained it well deff, totally agree with you. All it seems to take to reach consistent awareness is conditioning
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DividedQuantum
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Re: enlightenment and self [Re: deff]
#21200997 - 01/30/15 10:01 AM (8 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
deff said:
at a certain point in one's spiritual development, it's possible to enter into samadhi (conscious absorption in the superconsciousness) which is a very profound experience and opens the door to much (seemingly infinite) awareness of existence and one's being, and from a much more profound non-conceptual, non-dual, all-at-once-it's-all-you type of experience. when you leave samadhi, and re-enter your regular human awareness, you have a memory of some of it but your human mind cannot contain the actual experience fully. but it's said that repeatedly entering samadhi will overtime dissolve the individual identification and behavioural tendencies etc - which would facilitate greater ongoing awareness of truth, until such a day when one attains sahaja samadhi where one merges the superconscious state of samadhi with the regular conscious state of non-meditation, and one is effectively always in the superconscious awareness while still functioning in life. this would be enlightenment
Awesome
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CosmicJoke
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Quote:
DividedQuantum said: Enlightenment is said to entail the dissolution of self-consciousness. To me, this does not mean the dissolution of self itself. There is considerable ambiguity here. To say that the self doesn't exist at all, objectively, is a very popular thought. I'm not so sure this isn't a confusion. If one attains to the loftiest spiritual heights, and feels that their self has disappeared, well, who is there watching, and feeling?
If you've ever taken LSD and practiced being still in mind and body, you might have experienced a stripping away of your identity, and all of your psychological defense mechanisms that make up your point of view - there's a sense of witnessing it all that from outside yourself, realizing that none of it is who you really are. What's left? Just witnessing, it might be described as "clear light", but this is not the goal of life to experience moment by moment, you can't live in such a state. The rebirth is returning to normal, conscious mentation, but you feel extremely cathartic - it's a huge sense of relief to get a break from all your beliefs that have isolated you from your softer, sensitive, compassionate, inquisitive, raunchy, hilarious, earthy qualities of being... So that may help you make lifestyle changes so that you're no longer caught up in such egoic games that are isolating you from everything that's actually meaningful to you, that's just not how you want to spend your life anymore. Your values have changed.
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
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DividedQuantum
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Re: enlightenment and self [Re: CosmicJoke]
#21201057 - 01/30/15 10:16 AM (8 years, 11 months ago) |
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Indeed. Well said. This especially struck me:
Quote:
What's left? Just witnessing, it might be described as "clear light", but this is not the goal of life to experience moment by moment, you can't live in such a state.
Very interesting. One inference to be made from the original post is how do we reconcile this transcendental, selfless "Clear Light" experience with plain old ordinary consciousness? Is there a part of you, somehow still around as the experiencer of this Samadhi state, or has the self been fundamentally transcended, or undermined? I have always wondered whether there can be some sort of conceptual unification between being you, and being not-you.
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Icelander
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Quote:
DividedQuantum said: No, that was fascinating, thank you very much for sharing. I indeed share some of your views. As far as the experiencer and its relationship to the doer, I feel things are a bit messier. I think, for the most part, and by that I mean 99.9%, the conscious human agent is not the doer. However, I do feel there are some actions (on the part of the doer) than can be initiated and sustained by the conscious experiencer a little of the time, in this realm. But I feel that conscious will, which I must emphasize is in no way free, makes up a very small portion of human experience. Almost to the point of sheer negligibility, were it not for the fact that I feel what I have said is in fact the case. Essentially, you are, in my view, almost totally correct. (But not totally ).
I also feel the role of the sub/unconscious plays a huge role, an almost monolithic one. To what degree do you feel that humans, in the current incarnation, can come to know this realm? I realize that, as you point out, we are constantly in contact with it, but really in a very unaware way. To what extent do you feel we can become aware of it, and what are the best methods, in your experience?
Fuck dude you've got a good head on your shoulders. Just be careful or someone might get scared and try to lop it off. 
As to exploring the unconscious I believe/suspect that salvia is the best tool or one good tool for such endeavors. I actually think that on some of my salvia excursions I ended up in my unconscious mind. It sure seemed like that in retrospect taking into account both the images and my emotional reactions to them. All this while not knowing who or what I am anymore.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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DividedQuantum
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Re: enlightenment and self [Re: CosmicJoke]
#21201332 - 01/30/15 11:05 AM (8 years, 11 months ago) |
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I thought of another way to phrase my question. Can we exist as pure consciousness and still retain some part of our individuality? Or is our individuality, beyond a certain point and objectively, only an illusion? And if it is only an illusion, who or what is actually there that enables us to remember we had the experience?
I guess I'm thinking of "self" as, in the most general terms, any unit of reflective consciousness -- an entity. Perhaps there is a higher self which is underpinned by "soul," but then that would imply some type of fixed identity, which has been said to be illusory.
This is confusing.
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deff
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that's what sahaja samadhi is supposed to be - the merging of the superconscious state of samadhi with the waking consciousness of normal human activity. when someone normally goes into samadhi, they "leave this world" and are totally absorbed and then after some time come back to waking consciousness. with sahaja samadhi there is no longer a difference, and one can do any activity while still retaining the superconscious state. 
here's a brief article on it: http://www.srichinmoy.org/spirituality/concentration_meditation_contemplation/samadhi
an analogy i've heard is that we are like a many-storied building and normally function in waking consciousness on the bottom floor. in samadhi, we go to a higher floor and lose sight of the lower floors. in sahaja samadhi, we are on all floors simultaneously
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DividedQuantum
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Re: enlightenment and self [Re: deff]
#21201595 - 01/30/15 11:42 AM (8 years, 11 months ago) |
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Fantastic response, thanks deff. 
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CosmicJoke
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Quote:
DividedQuantum said: I thought of another way to phrase my question. Can we exist as pure consciousness and still retain some part of our individuality? Or is our individuality, beyond a certain point and objectively, only an illusion? And if it is only an illusion, who or what is actually there that enables us to remember we had the experience?
I guess I'm thinking of "self" as, in the most general terms, any unit of reflective consciousness -- an entity. Perhaps there is a higher self which is underpinned by "soul," but then that would imply some type of fixed identity, which has been said to be illusory.
This is confusing.
No, not the peak states of consciousness, we can't trip balls our whole lives.. But the peaks can teach you something, that you can calm down and look more deeply, see behind your identity that's so caught in the story line, the drama of your life. Imagine looking back your life, at all the people who hurt you, all the things you've done that you regret and are ashamed of, like a time lapse photography, and just be fascinated by it, appreciate it... no longer "identify" with the negative emotions... think of yourself and all those others no differently than trees growing. That's witnessing your life, from a higher vantage point than your ego. It's not pure consciousness, it's not buying into egoic games that isolate you from emotional wellbeing -it's a different vantage point, and one with a little more wisdom and empathy.
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
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DividedQuantum
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Re: enlightenment and self [Re: CosmicJoke]
#21201849 - 01/30/15 12:09 PM (8 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
CosmicJoke said: No, not the peak states of consciousness, we can't trip balls our whole lives.. But the peaks can teach you something, that you can calm down and look more deeply, see behind your identity that's so caught in the story line, the drama of your life. Imagine looking back your life, at all the people who hurt you, all the things you've done that you regret and are ashamed of, like a time lapse photography, and just be fascinated by it, appreciate it... no longer "identify" with the negative emotions... think of yourself and all those others no differently than trees growing. That's witnessing your life, from a higher vantage point than your ego. It's not pure consciousness, it's not buying into egoic games that isolate you from emotional wellbeing -it's a different vantage point, and one with a little more wisdom and empathy.
Well said. This resonates with me quite a bit.
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Chronic7
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Quote:
DividedQuantum said: Enlightenment is said to entail the dissolution of self-consciousness. To me, this does not mean the dissolution of self itself. There is considerable ambiguity here. To say that the self doesn't exist at all, objectively, is a very popular thought. I'm not so sure this isn't a confusion. If one attains to the loftiest spiritual heights, and feels that their self has disappeared, well, who is there watching, and feeling?
That's a great observation, whatever we see we are right here to see it, so any idea about self like higher self, ego-self, no-self, is seen by yourself Seeing as you exist beyond these ideas, why associate with any idea of self? Simply leave yourself alone...
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Edited by Chronic7 (01/31/15 02:26 AM)
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Kickle
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Re: enlightenment and self [Re: Chronic7]
#21205904 - 01/31/15 08:42 AM (8 years, 11 months ago) |
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Happy Birthday
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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deff
just love everyone



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Re: enlightenment and self [Re: Chronic7]
#21205929 - 01/31/15 08:53 AM (8 years, 11 months ago) |
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yeah happy birthday !
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: enlightenment and self [Re: Chronic7]
#21205935 - 01/31/15 08:55 AM (8 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Chronic said:
Quote:
DividedQuantum said: Enlightenment is said to entail the dissolution of self-consciousness. To me, this does not mean the dissolution of self itself. There is considerable ambiguity here. To say that the self doesn't exist at all, objectively, is a very popular thought. I'm not so sure this isn't a confusion. If one attains to the loftiest spiritual heights, and feels that their self has disappeared, well, who is there watching, and feeling?
That's a great observation, whatever we see we are right here to see it, so any idea about self like higher self, ego-self, no-self, is seen by yourself Seeing as you exist beyond these ideas, why associate with any idea of self? Simply leave yourself alone... 
YOu don't know what the fuck you're talking about!!!!!!!!!!!!
er..
oops...
What I meant to say was HAPPY BIRTHDAY SWEETIE
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Chronic7
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Re: enlightenment and self [Re: Icelander]
#21206204 - 01/31/15 10:13 AM (8 years, 11 months ago) |
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Thankyou guys, love the shroomery fam
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Halayudha
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Re: enlightenment and self [Re: Chronic7]
#21212152 - 02/01/15 04:53 PM (8 years, 11 months ago) |
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You had a birthday? Oh yesterday - Happy birthday Chronic.
Re: the thread - it's all about sharing love and hope I would say, those things can really change the world.
-------------------- Call me not rebel, though { here at every word {in what I sing If I no longer hail thee { King and Lord { Lord and King
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Sam Hardy
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Re: enlightenment and self [Re: Halayudha]
#21213515 - 02/01/15 09:02 PM (8 years, 11 months ago) |
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How I have experienced it is that enlightenment/awakening seems to be getting rid of all doubt and shame of who you are and what you are supposed to do.
In other words, having complete trust in oneself. How can one have complete trust in oneself? When you stop searching for answers, permission and confirmation from outside of yourself. Everything you need is all inside of you.
It is ultimately giving up the language and symbols defining what you should be and what you should do.
-------------------- Author of http://www.ZenDevil.com - psychology of freedom. Interested in exploring consciousness, shame, guilt, zen and psychedelic drugs.
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