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Offlinedeff
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Re: enlightenment and self [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #21198769 - 01/29/15 08:12 PM (9 years, 18 hours ago)

i think it's key in these discussions to thoroughly define what is meant by 'self' prior to analyzing if and how it exists. saying there is no individual self i don't think necessitates saying there is no individual awareness, but this depends on what is meant by 'self' :smile:


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Offlinedeff
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Re: enlightenment and self [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #21198961 - 01/29/15 08:56 PM (9 years, 17 hours ago)

yeah there's quite a lot of possibilities in regards to selfhood and the make-up of our beings

one way i think of it, is that the human experiencer-consciousness is not the deciding-agent-doer that initiates thoughts and actions, instead we as incarnate human experiencers have the false conception that we are also the deciding-agent (and that this illusion is intentional to necessitate the learning we go through in these lifetimes). the human experiencer, basically the realm of consciousness that is reading these words (or rather experiencing the reading of the words) has as its sole job to provide bare awareness for all activity in life. in this sense, i would agree that "we" (as the experiencer) are not the "doer" - and that through investigation we can shift gradually (or perhaps suddenly) to a stable realization of this, which would be a large aspect of 'liberation' - as then awareness would just rest effortlessly as itself, without the inner turmoil associated with identification.

but i disagree with the notion that there is no doer at all - just that we as the human experiencer are not the doer. the actual deciding agent of thoughts and actions is outside of our human awareness, though connected to us as another aspect of our greater being. this would be like the notion of the subconscious/unconscious - only I would say it plays a much more extensive role in agency than commonly asserted. it is my belief that when we die, we as the human experiencer merges back into union with this deciding agent and we come to the realization (or remembrance) that we played both roles simultaneously (creating content as the deciding agent and observing that content as the human experiencer). this also accounts for the idea that we are guided by spiritual beings throughout life (spirit guides, masters/teachers, and our higher selves [the 'parent' to our combined deciding-agent and human-experiencer soul]). these spiritual forces which guide our incarnation do so at the level of the deciding agent and usually not at the level of the human experiencer - which is why we are typically unconscious of any of this activity. but the guidance coming from these beings and higher aspects of our being work with the deciding agent to orchestrate events according to the lessons and overall plan we decided upon prior to beginning this incarnation. sometimes the human experiencing consciousness becomes aware of this guidance, and can experience communication with guides, the higher self, etc.

so i guess this is a bit lengthier of an possible explanation to things and also maybe too out there for most people. it's what i've gathered from communicating with my higher self (or at least experiencing the communication with my higher self :smile: ) there are many possibilities though, and life is certainly mysterious :sun:


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Re: enlightenment and self [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #21199118 - 01/29/15 09:28 PM (9 years, 16 hours ago)

yes that is very possible and I too am open to the idea that the human experiencer is more than just bare awareness and also has some interaction with content decisions, albeit like you said much outshadowed by the unconscious.

Quote:

To what degree do you feel that humans, in the current incarnation, can come to know this realm?  I realize that, as you point out, we are constantly in contact with it, but really in a very unaware way.  To what extent do you feel we can become aware of it, and what are the best methods, in your experience?




I feel we are always guided in life into the experiences we need for our soul's growth, evolution, and refining. for some, the necessary experiences may have very little to do with consciously engaging in self inquiry and spiritual topics, but this is totally okay (and what is wanted by that being at that time). one is not better than the other, it's all what is needed by the soul. so i think it's pretty rare to be exposed to all the answers and such while still embodied as this significantly subtracts from the learning potential for the human experiencer. we learn in this regard from illusion, much like watching a movie and becoming so engrossed that we feel we are the character, and through this, we learn lessons from the characters experiences.

but i do think it's part of our soul's development to seek more awareness of this and when the time is right, begin to open to more and more of it. in my experience the best method is meditation - something akin to vipassana meditation. not just resting meditation (like single pointedly resting the mind on an object) but rather investigative meditation, where we really sharpen and refine our awareness. this can also be done through the method of self-inquiry that Ramana Maharshi and others have taught - asking "who am i?" and really feeling for the truth of that, really honing in and cutting through layers of false identification.

at a certain point in one's spiritual development, it's possible to enter into samadhi (conscious absorption in the superconsciousness) which is a very profound experience and opens the door to much (seemingly infinite) awareness of existence and one's being, and from a much more profound non-conceptual, non-dual, all-at-once-it's-all-you type of experience. when you leave samadhi, and re-enter your regular human awareness, you have a memory of some of it but your human mind cannot contain the actual experience fully. but it's said that repeatedly entering samadhi will overtime dissolve the individual identification and behavioural tendencies etc - which would facilitate greater ongoing awareness of truth, until such a day when one attains sahaja samadhi where one merges the superconscious state of samadhi with the regular conscious state of non-meditation, and one is effectively always in the superconscious awareness while still functioning in life. this would be enlightenment :smile:

(this is one presentation of many of the spiritual path, this one coming from some hindu teachers mainly and is my current working model of things)


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Re: enlightenment and self [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #21199175 - 01/29/15 09:41 PM (9 years, 16 hours ago)

oh another method you could use to open into more awareness of the unconscious and inner workings of your being could be lucid dreaming. after getting good at lucid dreaming and stability of the dream, you could use the dream as a means to investigate consciously. you could ask the dream (while in it) to show you certain truths, to meet the higher self, really anything. I haven't done this method myself, but read about something along these lines in a book Cosmo recommended here called Lucid Dreaming: Gateway to the Inner Self - I enjoyed the book (never got around to finishing it though) and perhaps it would be something that interests you :smile:


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Re: enlightenment and self [Re: Pope]
    #21199224 - 01/29/15 09:52 PM (9 years, 16 hours ago)

yeah that sounds good Pope :smile: i agree that unified things can exist in seemingly separate parts, even seemingly contradictory parts, in different dimensions of itself. so i like to think that we are multi-dimensional beings, insofar as our greater being exists on many different levels simultaneously, and each level has it's own thing going on (such as human experience). the higher levels subsume the lower levels, and from a higher level you see the unity of the structure, but from a lower level it seems more like distinct structures and less unified. stuff like that :laugh:


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Re: enlightenment and self [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #21201365 - 01/30/15 11:11 AM (9 years, 3 hours ago)

that's what sahaja samadhi is supposed to be - the merging of the superconscious state of samadhi with the waking consciousness of normal human activity. when someone normally goes into samadhi, they "leave this world" and are totally absorbed and then after some time come back to waking consciousness. with sahaja samadhi there is no longer a difference, and one can do any activity while still retaining the superconscious state. :smile:

here's a brief article on it: http://www.srichinmoy.org/spirituality/concentration_meditation_contemplation/samadhi

an analogy i've heard is that we are like a many-storied building and normally function in waking consciousness on the bottom floor. in samadhi, we go to a higher floor and lose sight of the lower floors. in sahaja samadhi, we are on all floors simultaneously :laugh:


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Re: enlightenment and self [Re: Chronic7]
    #21205929 - 01/31/15 08:53 AM (8 years, 11 months ago)

yeah happy birthday ! :laugh:


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