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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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enlightenment and self
    #21198705 - 01/29/15 07:59 PM (9 years, 18 hours ago)

Enlightenment is said to entail the dissolution of self-consciousness.  To me, this does not mean the dissolution of self itself.  There is considerable ambiguity here.  To say that the self doesn't exist at all, objectively, is a very popular thought.  I'm not so sure this isn't a confusion.  If one attains to the loftiest spiritual heights, and feels that their self has disappeared, well, who is there watching, and feeling?


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: enlightenment and self [Re: deff]
    #21198895 - 01/29/15 08:41 PM (9 years, 17 hours ago)

Well deff, I'm not entirely sure what I really mean by "self."  I tend to think along the lines that it is possible we are made up of both "false" and "true" selves, but I'm not sure if my true self is really objectively individual in any way, or not.  And then I'm not sure how "soul" gets all wrapped up in things (but I am someone who thinks it does).

If you have any suggestions, I would be quite interested to hear them.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: enlightenment and self [Re: deff]
    #21199048 - 01/29/15 09:15 PM (9 years, 17 hours ago)

No, that was fascinating, thank you very much for sharing.  I indeed share some of your views.  As far as the experiencer and its relationship to the doer, I feel things are a bit messier.  I think, for the most part, and by that I mean 99.9%, the conscious human agent is not the doer.  However, I do feel there are some actions (on the part of the doer) than can be initiated and sustained by the conscious experiencer a little of the time, in this realm.  But I feel that conscious will, which I must emphasize is in no way free, makes up a very small portion of human experience.  Almost to the point of sheer negligibility, were it not for the fact that I feel what I have said is in fact the case.  Essentially, you are, in my view, almost totally correct.  (But not totally :smile:).

I also feel the role of the sub/unconscious plays a huge role, an almost monolithic one.  To what degree do you feel that humans, in the current incarnation, can come to know this realm?  I realize that, as you point out, we are constantly in contact with it, but really in a very unaware way.  To what extent do you feel we can become aware of it, and what are the best methods, in your experience?


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: enlightenment and self [Re: deff]
    #21200997 - 01/30/15 10:01 AM (9 years, 4 hours ago)

Quote:

deff said:

at a certain point in one's spiritual development, it's possible to enter into samadhi (conscious absorption in the superconsciousness) which is a very profound experience and opens the door to much (seemingly infinite) awareness of existence and one's being, and from a much more profound non-conceptual, non-dual, all-at-once-it's-all-you type of experience. when you leave samadhi, and re-enter your regular human awareness, you have a memory of some of it but your human mind cannot contain the actual experience fully. but it's said that repeatedly entering samadhi will overtime dissolve the individual identification and behavioural tendencies etc - which would facilitate greater ongoing awareness of truth, until such a day when one attains sahaja samadhi where one merges the superconscious state of samadhi with the regular conscious state of non-meditation, and one is effectively always in the superconscious awareness while still functioning in life. this would be enlightenment :smile:





Awesome :thumbup:


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: enlightenment and self [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #21201057 - 01/30/15 10:16 AM (9 years, 4 hours ago)

Indeed.  Well said.  This especially struck me:

Quote:

What's left? Just witnessing, it might be described as "clear light", but this is not the goal of life to experience moment by moment, you can't live in such a state.




Very interesting.  One inference to be made from the original post is how do we reconcile this transcendental, selfless "Clear Light" experience with plain old ordinary consciousness?  Is there a part of you, somehow still around as the experiencer of this Samadhi state, or has the self been fundamentally transcended, or undermined?  I have always wondered whether there can be some sort of conceptual unification between being you, and being not-you.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: enlightenment and self [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #21201332 - 01/30/15 11:05 AM (9 years, 3 hours ago)

I thought of another way to phrase my question.  Can we exist as pure consciousness and still retain some part of our individuality?  Or is our individuality, beyond a certain point and objectively, only an illusion?  And if it is only an illusion, who or what is actually there that enables us to remember we had the experience?

I guess I'm thinking of "self" as, in the most general terms, any unit of reflective consciousness -- an entity.  Perhaps there is a higher self which is underpinned by "soul," but then that would imply some type of fixed identity, which has been said to be illusory.

This is confusing.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: enlightenment and self [Re: deff]
    #21201595 - 01/30/15 11:42 AM (9 years, 2 hours ago)

Fantastic response, thanks deff.  :smile::thumbup:


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Re: enlightenment and self [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #21201849 - 01/30/15 12:09 PM (9 years, 2 hours ago)

Quote:

CosmicJoke said:
No, not the peak states of consciousness, we can't trip balls our whole lives.. But the peaks can teach you something, that you can calm down and look more deeply, see behind your identity that's so caught in the story line, the drama of your life.  Imagine looking back your life, at all the people who hurt you, all the things you've done that you regret and are ashamed of, like a time lapse photography, and just be fascinated by it, appreciate it... no longer "identify" with the negative emotions... think of yourself and all those others no differently than trees growing.  That's witnessing your life, from a higher vantage point than your ego.  It's not pure consciousness, it's not buying into egoic games that isolate you from emotional wellbeing -it's a different vantage point, and one with a little more wisdom and empathy.




Well said.  This resonates with me quite a bit.


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