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 djd586
Underpants Gnome
Registered: 02/03/03
Posts: 1,655
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 Acient Hallucenations 
#2118699 - 11/17/03 11:27 PM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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When I trip I find myself having hallucenations based on acient cultures, i.e. Acient Greece, Native Americans, Myans, Aztecs, Incas, Egyptians...
Now, the question is, are these hallucentaions based on rooted knowledge of these cultures? Would I have the same visuals if I were to know nothing of them? I would say on an average daily basis I devote like 0% percent of my thought to them... so why do they consume my trips?
Perhaps these types of hallucenations are what inspired acient cultures to do what they did. Particularly the acient cultures of the Americas.
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Phase 1... collect underpants... phase 2...??? ... Phase 3 - PROFIT!
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 Shroomism
Space Travellin
 
Registered: 02/13/00
Posts: 66,015
Loc: 9th Dimension 
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Re: Acient Hallucenations [Re: djd586]
#2118738 - 11/17/03 11:46 PM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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Perhaps you are reliving past lives. Who knows.
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trendal
J♠
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada 
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Re: Acient Hallucenations [Re: djd586]
#2118741 - 11/17/03 11:51 PM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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It's interesting to note that almost all the liturature on psilocybin (and in many cases LSD) states that the hallucinations produced are often of a Mexican or Native-American motif.
I've often wondered about this similarity. If hallucations are merely the product of a drug's interaction with the brain, I would expect the individual reactions to be completely different in subjective experience. While the reactions are markedly individual, there is the glaring contradiction of themes which remain the same from person to person.
DMT is another drug I'm interested in because of similarities. Although I have never tried it myself, I understand that a "DMT elf" is experienced by a large percentage of users. Again, this has always struck me as odd.
Perhaps these types of hallucenations are what inspired acient cultures to do what they did. Particularly the acient cultures of the Americas.
What came first: the chicken or the egg? 
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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Xochitl
synchronicitycircuit
Registered: 07/15/03
Posts: 1,241
Loc: the brainforest
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Re: Acient Hallucenations [Re: trendal]
#2118894 - 11/18/03 01:35 AM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Perhaps these types of hallucenations are what inspired acient cultures to do what they did. Particularly the acient cultures of the Americas.
I would agree with that. Another example would be the artwork of the Shipibo in the Peruvian Amazon who are still around today. Their motifs and designs are known to be inspired by the circuitry of the ayahuasca visions.
Also, consider the artwork of the Huichol who ritualistically use peyote:
I would think that Mesoamerican culture also had similiar inspirations due to their usage of mushrooms, morning glories, ololiuqui, and possibily salvia (a candidate for being pipiltzintzintli). Perhaps because of time, erosion, and translation difficulty, the reasons for these particular designs is not as apparant as the Shipibo and Huichol who are relatively accessible.
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As we know, there are known knowns. There are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns. That is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don't know we don't know.
-Donald Rumsfeld 2/2/02 Pentagon
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Spokesman
The HighPhilosopher
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Re: Acient Hallucenations [Re: Xochitl]
#2119238 - 11/18/03 08:04 AM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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Very intresting indeed, ive always wondered about those "DMT elves" too.
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Noviseer
Percussion isFree
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Re: Acient Hallucenations [Re: Spokesman]
#2119254 - 11/18/03 08:13 AM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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If you believe Terence McKenna and Rupert Sheldrake, its because these entheogens have left imprints in the morphogenetic field, and subsequent triping accesses that vault of past experiences. Terence believed that every time you trip, you add your small input to a great invisible trip log, accessible by trippers everywhere. Thats why research chems, with their lack of mythology/history, produce visuals such as trails, patterns, fractals, but not exotic mesoamerican landscapes.
Sounds farfetched even for Terence, but it is appealing in its elegance. Once something has undergone the formality of occuring, why shouldn't it be more likely to occur again, even if it was the product of chaos? It would explain a lot.
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_______________________________________________________________
namaste said:
no flamz in da ODD, if you got nothing to contribute then keep yo lips zipped
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
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Re: Acient Hallucenations [Re: trendal]
#2119433 - 11/18/03 10:11 AM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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It's interesting to note that almost all the liturature on psilocybin (and in many cases LSD) states that the hallucinations produced are often of a Mexican or Native-American motif.
Please explain what you mean by "motif"? As it is likely, as another pointed out, that certain enthnic artwork seems to resemble patterns seen while in a psychedelic state, then there is nothing too mysterious about the similarity between blanket designs, et al, and internal patterns.
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The proof is in the pudding.
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trendal
J♠
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: Acient Hallucenations [Re: Swami]
#2119641 - 11/18/03 11:55 AM (20 years, 4 months ago) |
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mo?tif ( P ) Pronunciation Key (m-tf)
n.
A recurrent thematic element in an artistic or literary work.
A dominant theme or central idea.
Music. A short rhythmic or melodic passage that is repeated or evoked in various parts of a composition.
A repeated figure or design in architecture or decoration. See Synonyms at figure.
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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trendal
J♠
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: Acient Hallucenations [Re: trendal]
#2119645 - 11/18/03 11:57 AM (20 years, 4 months ago) |
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It's not the link between ancient artwork and hallucinations that I find interesting, it's the similarities in hallucinations (especially the most complex hallucinations) between individuals who have had no contact with eachother that interests me.
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
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Re: Acient Hallucenations [Re: trendal]
#2119712 - 11/18/03 12:15 PM (20 years, 4 months ago) |
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Do you find it to be dosage related? I have never had any vision of any ancient cultures nor have ANY of my friends during the heydays of the 60s and 70s (at least they did not relate them to me). But then there was little popular literature available at the time and no few pre-conceived notions.
It seems that the way to see if one is tapping into some historical timeline or archetype or merely a by-product of suggestion (expectation from reading) would be to get a friend to trip with no previous experience nor interest in psychedelics.
Will be hard to do though as people naturally are attracted to or repulsed from entheogens; and those who are attracted tend to educate themselves, thus possibly expecting certain types of visions.
Footnote: I only had one weird vision - that of being at some sort of sci-fi controls in a spaceship. But then that has always been a fascination.
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The proof is in the pudding.
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trendal
J♠
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: Acient Hallucenations [Re: Swami]
#2119723 - 11/18/03 12:19 PM (20 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yes, I agree that the only way to really tell is to get someone who has no prior knowledge of entheogens, and then give them some.
Although I could argue that the first time I took mushrooms, I did not know anything about ancient culture themes in hallucinations. That being said, I still saw things that I would consider "Ancient Civilization".
Is it dose dependant? Maybe, but I think it is so only because hallucinations themselves are dose-dependant.
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: Acient Hallucenations [Re: trendal]
#2119775 - 11/18/03 12:33 PM (20 years, 4 months ago) |
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Is it dose dependant? Maybe, but I think it is so only because hallucinations themselves are dose-dependant.
Obviously so. Pardon as I did not make myself clear. I guess what I was trying to ask is, is it EXTREMELY heavy dose related? Have done 3 - 5 gram dosages on several occasions, but never a megadose.
On a similar vein, some people speak (like McKenna) of having visions more real and clearer than ordinary reality. I have never experienced anything like that nor did I ever feel that I was in a different world (heavily altered, but not different!)
To those who envision ancient cultures, are the visions stable like ordinary reality or shifting like in dreams?
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The proof is in the pudding.
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trendal
J♠
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: Acient Hallucenations [Re: Swami]
#2119812 - 11/18/03 12:43 PM (20 years, 4 months ago) |
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Hmm. Well I have had visions of this type from as low as 1.5g before, but they DO come most often from heavier doses. I've done 8g on a couple occaisions, and those trips have always been littered with the themes of ancient civilization.
I have not had a vision that is clearer than reality from mushrooms, but I have several times on Salvia D. Breakthroughs are always weirdly clear and "real" for me. I seem to be ultra-aware of everything around me, as if searching for some sign that this ISN'T real but unable to find any flaws.
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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TheEggman
Mind-expandingStudent
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Re: Acient Hallucenations [Re: trendal]
#2119954 - 11/18/03 01:30 PM (20 years, 4 months ago) |
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It has also been shown that if multiple people consume DMT in the same time at the same place, they will experience the same hallucinations. The same elves in the same places at the same times, etc. etc. Narly huh?
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Peace and love,
Tim.
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Spokesman
The HighPhilosopher
Registered: 08/05/03
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Re: Acient Hallucenations [Re: TheEggman]
#2119992 - 11/18/03 01:41 PM (20 years, 4 months ago) |
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where has that been shown, that is defenetly worth looking into you know. Creatures in existance made of something other than matter? Are atoms only part of the reality spectrum, the only part our brains can decode at this moment???
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Xochitl
synchronicitycircuit
Registered: 07/15/03
Posts: 1,241
Loc: the brainforest
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Re: Acient Hallucenations [Re: Swami]
#2120141 - 11/18/03 02:26 PM (20 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
On a similar vein, some people speak (like McKenna) of having visions more real and clearer than ordinary reality. I have never experienced anything like that nor did I ever feel that I was in a different world (heavily altered, but not different!)
To those who envision ancient cultures, are the visions stable like ordinary reality or shifting like in dreams?
The visions seem more real than reality. A true hallucination, if you will. On two separate occassions, I consumed approx. six dried grams along with 3 grams of peganum harmala. I saw a thin man with many decorative bead necklaces and other non-western decor. The man looked African. We sat together and communicated through an odd language of clicking, percussion, and vowel sounds.
When the effects of the mushrooms started to fade, I realized that the man was almost superimposed onto my friend who also reported a similar vision. For my friend, I was the man. I had this experience before I started researching shamanism, even before I had any drop of interest in the subject.
The visions are somewhat shifting and hazy like a dream, but yet incredibly more real and convincing. The experience is like some sort of periodic event like a volcano, rather than a common passing dream. There seems to be a pattern involved that resembles one of those Choose-Your-Adventure books except all possible outcomes are not secret.
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As we know, there are known knowns. There are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns. That is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don't know we don't know.
-Donald Rumsfeld 2/2/02 Pentagon
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Mixomatosis
great ape
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Re: Acient Hallucenations [Re: Xochitl]
#2120861 - 11/18/03 06:59 PM (20 years, 4 months ago) |
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On ayahuasca I encountered the "casino" I call it. Not exactly ancient cultures.
On smoked DMT, though, I encountered the feeling of ancient egyptian and mayan/aztec imagery. Hardly any actual visual motifs, but a very tangible version of the feeling you get when looking at these culture's artwork. In my case, I never really acknowledged that feeling when looking at this artwork before the experience.
I've wondered about this same stuff. It's pretty funky.
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bert
bodhi
Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2,819
Loc: state
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 Re: Acient Hallucenations [Re: djd586]
#2120893 - 11/18/03 07:15 PM (20 years, 4 months ago) |
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The very first time I took mushrooms, I took a bit more than an 1/8th dried and on the come up every part of the room I was in that had shadows was covered with intricate green 'aztec' symbols. I was pretty pleasantly surprised and always wondered why not more basic geometry? I felt like I could almost read it for a little while before I threw up.
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Persons denying the existence of robots may be robots themselves.
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Nirvhead
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Re: Acient Hallucenations [Re: Swami]
#2120958 - 11/18/03 07:54 PM (20 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Swami said:
Do you find it to be dosage related? I have never had any vision of any ancient cultures nor have ANY of my friends during the heydays of the 60s and 70s (at least they did not relate them to me). But then there was little popular literature available at the time and no few pre-conceived notions.
It seems that the way to see if one is tapping into some historical timeline or archetype or merely a by-product of suggestion (expectation from reading) would be to get a friend to trip with no previous experience nor interest in psychedelics.
Will be hard to do though as people naturally are attracted to or repulsed from entheogens; and those who are attracted tend to educate themselves, thus possibly expecting certain types of visions.
Just thought I would mention that up until I was 22, I had not used any drug other than marijuana (once in a great while) and that is when I began to use mushrooms. From the beginning I have always seen patterns strongly resembling Mayan/Aztec/Etc. artwork. Now of course I was familiar with such artwork or I wouldn't have made the connection - however, I did not have any expectations as to what visuals I would see.
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Like a fiend in a cloud
With howling woe,
After night I do croud
And with night will go;
I turn my back to the east,
From whence comforts have increas'd;
For light doth seize my brain
With frantic pain.
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: Acient Hallucenations [Re: Nirvhead]
#2121262 - 11/18/03 10:04 PM (20 years, 4 months ago) |
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Seeing central American artwork while tripping is completely different than seeing Central Amercian civilizations.
Much of the artwork WAS obstenably patterned after psychedelic geometry, so of course they would be similar. Nothing too mysterious about that.
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The proof is in the pudding.
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