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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: There is no doer [Re: Sam Hardy]
    #21231169 - 02/05/15 03:36 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

if 'you' decide to do something is it still spontaneous?

say you decide to lift your arm

we can ask if it's spontaneous if you planed it.

we can also break it down, in terms of awareness:

when we were talking and you reached for your coffee cup were you aware
of which fingers you used while holding the tiny handle?

we can also break it down in terms of time:

this is what Tai chi does it slows everything down so one becomes aware of the micromovements.

there is always so much going on, and 90% or so of it is unconscious ... much is habitual ... culturally conditioned ... avoiding pain seeking pleasure

anyway it would seem 'real' spontaneity has a quality of surprising oneself. joy seems to come from not trying so hard to be in control.
so perhaps 'no doer' maybe thought of as a release rather than a loss?


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: There is no doer [Re: laughingdog]
    #21231191 - 02/05/15 03:40 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

also in idea of no doer
is release from guilt, shame and blame
if we give ourselves this gift
we maybe less judgemental of others


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: There is no doer [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #21241495 - 02/07/15 09:48 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

Consider the following.
What is the essence of "the self"?

Obviously it's not the body. Lose an arm still a self.
Next, they ask is, it the mind?
Well thoughts run rampant thru the mind, dreaming or not, along with changing emotions & beliefs, so mind per se seems not to have a stable center.

That leaves awareness. Without awareness we experience nothing. The pinnacle of awareness is awareness of awareness. So true self is awareness of awareness. But awareness of awareness is immaterial, or pure context.

Just as space is context for objects, and does not move them. Likewise awareness is context for our lives and does not 'do' them. So 'self' is not a doer , but is rather an observer.

According to this viewpoint, as I understand it at this time.

So this does not deny so called 'small' or conventional self, but says that as it is a conditioned phenomenon, if it is identified with suffering results.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: There is no doer [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #21241529 - 02/07/15 09:56 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

DividedQuantum if you knew what awareness is that would be content not context.

Do you know what space is?

Do you know what time is?


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: There is no doer [Re: laughingdog]
    #21241555 - 02/07/15 10:03 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

Seems the gist of the no doer idea is to free us from struggle so we enjoy the show.

you ask ; "Does this mean we are conscious automatons? "

this is subtle and profound

no 'we' are not automatons

because there is no 'we'! It's all empty.

that's the idea anyway

most folks would think it nonsense
not a high percentage of folks are buddhist monks


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: There is no doer [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #21241650 - 02/07/15 10:30 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

"So are you saying awareness doesn't do anything?"
Exactly
Silence is context for sound,
it does not make sound.
Space is context for objects
but is immaterial, and doesn't effect them.
(although it does have some properties:
there are only 17 wallpaper groups in 2 dimensions for example)
Also more abstract than objects are thoughts.
Awareness is the context of thoughts.
Awareness is more subtle than space, but still,
awareness is no more mysterious than "experiencing".
If no awareness then no experiencing.
We have made it into a big deal because we are so focused on the material.
Everything is awareness. We never see the world. The world as we see it is two images upside down on our retinas, recombined in a brain that is totally dark, by multiple modules. This type of processing is true to some degree of all 'our' perceptions'. In that sense we are like automatons.
I think the aim of vipassana practice is to disentangle the mix of perceptions that normally create a sense of self. The claim is that at some point the whole house of cards collapses. It is never claimed that just by thinking about it we can "get it".


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: There is no doer [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #21241733 - 02/07/15 10:59 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

I have no idea what "implicate order" means
anymore than the "holy ghost"

you say
"universe is almost certainly conscious"

I ask do you think the universe has a self?

dualism to me is when you divide the world into consciousness
plus a subject that is conscious of an object, actually three parts here.

I think physics got stuck between particles and waves till they came up with fields
and transcended their dualism


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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


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