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mt cleverest
clevendafodil

Registered: 08/19/12
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There is no doer
#21190551 - 01/28/15 09:40 AM (9 years, 1 day ago) |
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"Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof." - buddha
What does this mean to you? Because it sort of sounds like there is no doer. In which case who cares about spirituality?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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It means that you don't have much if any free will. And so then spirituality comes into question. But we all do things that are irrational it seems.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Chronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
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Quote:
mt cleverest said: "Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof." - buddha
What does this mean to you? Because it sort of sounds like there is no doer. In which case who cares about spirituality?
It invalidates spirituality as being an egoic attainment but it doesn't invalidate an interest in (caring about) spiritual paths, at least not early on where that may be necessary as identification with doership is very much in force
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deff
just love everyone



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Quote:
In which case who cares about spirituality?
it seems Buddha cared about it (teaching it and all)
I don't see a discrepancy between there being no independent entity behind actions and yet still engaging in beneficial spiritual pursuits. it's like saying there's no doer so why eat food? it does mean that spirituality isn't a pursuit to make a better doer, but it doesn't invalidate the benefits imo and getting to the actual realization that there is no doer i think requires some sort of inner work to bring about - it's easy to intellectually agree with it and another thing to actually live without a sense of doership
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Icelander
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Re: There is no doer [Re: deff]
#21190729 - 01/28/15 10:30 AM (9 years, 1 day ago) |
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The fact that people look to a Buddha instead of themselves is very telling imo.
It's quite possible that the buddha wasn't really enlightened enough to keep his mouth shut and live out his dream. He actually thought people would benefit from his teaching? I think it's just another way for humans to either feel inflated or inadequate.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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deff
just love everyone



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whatever floats one's boat
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Icelander
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Re: There is no doer [Re: deff]
#21190821 - 01/28/15 10:56 AM (9 years, 1 day ago) |
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Really?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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deff
just love everyone



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why not? why worry what other people find beneficial so long as they aren't harming anyone in the process
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yeah


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allow yourself to become an instrument of god and no longer resist the present moment
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Spacerific
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Re: There is no doer [Re: yeah]
#21191124 - 01/28/15 11:53 AM (9 years, 1 day ago) |
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I am seeing a blue planet in the sky, leaves and worms are being eaten, sunlight converted to plants to shrooms to elks to birds to primates, I see long cycles, a whole molecular dance and fun times taking place, but there's no real individual identity to any part of it. A fish is a process that makes more fish, it's the planet that's fish-ing, or cat-ing or bird-ing or tree-ing or human-ing or dolphin-ing.
There's on one level nobody to care about spirituality, but on another THE WHOLE PLANET cares about it, and one of its forms that it does this in, is you or me.
The same way that nobody really cares about the magnesium content of rotting wood, EXCEPT the worms and mushrooms that deal with it directly, they're quite busy at it, enjoying to the max a good piece of magnesium-rich wood, or whatever wood happens to contain 
It's all loops loops loops, through hoops hoops hoops. The whole exists, the divisions between parts are illusory. There is no individual doer, because the whole of it organically does itself.
For comparison, who runs your body? The muscles, the nerves or the blood cells? Does any of them have individual control? Which part of you is more spiritual, your left eye or your nose?
-------------------- Blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear.
For truly, I say to you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it. - Matthew 13:16
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Pope
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exactly what it says, and you said, there's no individual doer, things just happen. nobody care about spirituality, but there's still caring about spirituality. just like nobody actually gets burnt, but there's still burning. there is never a doer, everything is verbs, a lot of it verbs disquised as adjectives. anywhere you look there's no doers to be found, things just grow or decline or absorb or emit or anything else on their own, or not on their own, but they are those things and nothing before or beyond it. there's just a constant death/birth going on at a very rapid pace at all points and at all times, just change. there's the appearance of a doer at times, or a 'center' that everything happens around, and 'flows' out of, but this is just awareness of a reference, limiting awareness for the sake of gaining some chunk of understanding, every thing is a center and also 'part' of the outside of every other center. i'm not sure on a self though, i don't think it means there's nobody at all, just no doer.
I wana add on to this a bit with an edit to clarify 'every thing is a center and also part of the outside of every center', it's on a more 'base' level than just 'things', the word things might give the wrong idea, it's more points. so not thing as a recognised and agreed upon object, like an orange or a sparrow or a river, but just a point. so any agreed on object, like a river or an orange, contains huge numbers of centers/peripheries. any center is made up of and defined by the centers surrounding it, overlapping, and just the same is overlapped onto the centers surrounding it and is part of those centers also. you can have two 'centers', and move into the peripery or the gap between those centers, and suddenly those centers are no longer centers, and the gap between is now the center. anywhere you go you can find a center, because there is none, just the 'illusion' of it, and in turn this would mean there's no doer.
Edited by Pope (01/28/15 02:10 PM)
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Spacerific
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Re: There is no doer [Re: Pope]
#21192463 - 01/28/15 04:33 PM (9 years, 1 day ago) |
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I think this whole mega-process, the fractalic molecular symphony/dance/game that's happening here, we can pretty much all agree on what it is, the animation, the visual parts of it, but where humans don't agree much is what exact mouth noise should go with what thought or process 
Seriously, I could start tackling things like:
Quote:
everything is verbs, a lot of it verbs disquised as adjectives
and say that everything is process, that even "verbs" is simply a mental mouth noise that primates tell to themselves or each other, and the "tree" outside (the pattern in which water and chlorophyll exists for a while in one place, that primates call "tree") - that pattern is NOT the same thing as the mouth noise that primates use for it.
It's indeed just looping, loop loop loop, everything going around everything else, changing states, jumping from one bag to another, orbiting and looping.
I do have an idea that the electrical part of it is a bit different than the molecular/physical part of it, in the sense that "We" as the consciousness, might well be just something to do with the electricity, and we can run "on" the physical pathways set by material neurons and nerves, but we're just "running along" those lines, we're not exactly "of" the material, chemical molecular realm.
We (as in, the electrics) might be individuals (no way to tell really, as we can't look up to see if we're distinct) or just individual fingers from a larger hand, like an oversoul.
In any case, on the physical plane, all the molecules and bodies, the birds and trees, that's all clearly just loops and patterns going ta-dee-dah, tro lo lo, dancing around and around
-------------------- Blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear.
For truly, I say to you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it. - Matthew 13:16
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Pope
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oh no i know this full and well, words have nothing to do with anything and are inherently false understandings, i had a period where i went almost completely silent for a couple of years, just because words were glaringly wrong and misleading things to me, and i felt like i was by default lying anytime i spoke. i think now though that they can point to things, or get a person closer to a proper understanding. verbs pretty much mean motion, and like you said, looping and jumping and dancing and all that jazz, & i think 'all is verbs' is still delusional thinking, but its agreed meaning implies something closer to the looping and dancing going on, points to it. a rose is never the word rose, but if you wanted someone to grab one for whatever reason but you didnt know what language they spoke just for example, eventually after you've went through enough of the words for rose one will ring a bell and theyll go ah and grab the rose. i think mouth noises can be beneficial in the same sense, they dont get you there but they can, if you translate your idea correctly for their worldview and wordage, if you hit the right button, get them within reaching distance of whatever it is.
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Spacerific
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Re: There is no doer [Re: Pope]
#21193211 - 01/28/15 06:53 PM (9 years, 1 day ago) |
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It's all good, as long as people eat the food, not the menu with the food names
-------------------- Blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear.
For truly, I say to you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it. - Matthew 13:16
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MarkostheGnostic
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Quote:
mt cleverest said: "Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof." - buddha
What does this mean to you? Because it sort of sounds like there is no doer. In which case who cares about spirituality?
The realization of such ideas is a spiritually reflexive act. The resultant awareness, void of contents, is a spiritual verity.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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cbub
it


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Quote:
mt cleverest said: "Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof." - buddha
What does this mean to you? Because it sort of sounds like there is no doer. In which case who cares about spirituality?
It means the self is an illusion, it's all only a story. There is no identification, nothing is personal. No metaphors here. It's more like you are a thought thinking itself into (illusory)existence, but that's not really true, because there is identification here in this sentance. It can't really be put into words properly, it's just made that way. For a reason  I guess enthusiasts who find it interesting care about it.. it's a trap like any other, but like you pointed out.. it's not really up to you if you will get trapped or not. When you see this, you see that it's easy to forgive.. actually there is nothing to forgive and wow, what an epic story! who is awed by it?
-------------------- It's fine.
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Sam Hardy
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Re: There is no doer [Re: cbub] 1
#21195330 - 01/29/15 07:42 AM (9 years, 11 hours ago) |
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How I have realized it from personal experience is that there is no trying to do anything, there is just doing. Likewise, I am not trying to be anything or anyone, I am just being myself.
When a bear starts chasing me, I am not trying to run. I run away naturally without me thinking one second about it because of danger.
-------------------- Author of http://www.ZenDevil.com - psychology of freedom. Interested in exploring consciousness, shame, guilt, zen and psychedelic drugs.
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laughingdog
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Re: There is no doer [Re: Sam Hardy]
#21231169 - 02/05/15 03:36 PM (8 years, 11 months ago) |
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if 'you' decide to do something is it still spontaneous?
say you decide to lift your arm
we can ask if it's spontaneous if you planed it.
we can also break it down, in terms of awareness:
when we were talking and you reached for your coffee cup were you aware of which fingers you used while holding the tiny handle?
we can also break it down in terms of time:
this is what Tai chi does it slows everything down so one becomes aware of the micromovements.
there is always so much going on, and 90% or so of it is unconscious ... much is habitual ... culturally conditioned ... avoiding pain seeking pleasure
anyway it would seem 'real' spontaneity has a quality of surprising oneself. joy seems to come from not trying so hard to be in control. so perhaps 'no doer' maybe thought of as a release rather than a loss?
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laughingdog
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also in idea of no doer is release from guilt, shame and blame if we give ourselves this gift we maybe less judgemental of others
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cbub
it


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Quote:
laughingdog said: also in idea of no doer is release from guilt, shame and blame if we give ourselves this gift we maybe less judgemental of others
Absolutely.. but it's not even a gift, it's the truth. This is exactly what Jesus was talking about when he said "Only truth shall set you free."
-------------------- It's fine.
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