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InvisibleGrey Fox

Registered: 01/22/15
Posts: 2,665
The Confusion About Trichocereus Species
    #21183915 - 01/26/15 09:56 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

I am new to Trichocereus cacti.

I recently came across "Trout's Notes on San Pedro and Related Trichocereus Species".  It's a great resource.

But as I scroll through and look at the photos of pachanoi, peruvianus, macrogonus, cuzcoensis, and to a lesser extent bridgesii I get confused because there is so much overlap in appearance with these species.  I have searched all over the internet for more photos and it has not helped.  I have even gone to garden centers and seen actual specimens of these cacti.  And I am still confused.

There are pachanoi that look like peruvianus and vice versa.  Macrogonus and peruvianus look like the same exact thing.  Cuzcoensis and some peruvianus look the same.

I guess it all leads me to wonder "Are these really separate species or just one species with a great deal of variety in appearance, especially based on geographical location in South America?"  The fact that they all hybridize with each other makes the "single species" hypothesis seem even more plausible.

Is there something that I'm missing?  Any clarification for this trichocereus newbie would be greatly appreciated.


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Invisiblejack_straw2208
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Registered: 02/12/07
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Re: The Confusion About Trichocereus Species [Re: Grey Fox]
    #21183976 - 01/26/15 10:09 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

i am also curious. hopefully someone who knows their succulents arrives shortly.


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Offlineintelligentlife
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Re: The Confusion About Trichocereus Species [Re: jack_straw2208]
    #21184291 - 01/26/15 11:30 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Everyone is probably confused a bit.

I found from wikipedia about peruvianus is today only one species with seveal subspecies. Found from different mountain valleys etc.. San Pedro is kinda mixed to Peruvian Torch at south america. It's been said around there are lots of different mountain valleys and highlands with littlebit different form cactus colonies and they are so far classified as subspecies of one t. peruvianus. Anyway, that's only wikipedia information, I don't know my self much than different peruvianus can be found from different highland area around Peru and Ecuador.

Anyway, what comes to Predominant Cultivar t. pachanoi clone, no one know it's origin but seems it's only "problem" of USA. Other continents is full of different trichocereus plants, named by the peruvianus or pachanoi and so on.

Trout's notes is good site, I don't think you're not missing anything. Trout tries to point out about PC Pachanoi isn't similar to actual T. Pachanoi southern american people use as sacrament.


Afaik, noone have found PC Pachanoi from the wild, even it's possible.. Who the f know.:shrug:

IMO T. Pachanoi and T. Peruvianus isn't so far away from anothers, bridgesii is exception and it's more prone to cold and damp climate compared to these two. Sometimes t. pachanoi grown from seed look very much like a peruvian torch when grown to bigger plant. Some doesn't have spikes at all, some have wanting spines and grow towards baking sun, more sun = more spikes, most actual san pedro will do that. Shade grown plants may not have had so vigorous spikes comapred to full sun grown cactus. But it depends what clone you have, some clones change much when light levels change, some doesn't change much.:sun:

Edited by intelligentlife (01/26/15 11:38 PM)

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OfflineLSoares
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Re: The Confusion About Trichocereus Species [Re: Grey Fox]
    #21184753 - 01/27/15 02:17 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Grey Fox said:
Are these really separate species or just one species with a great deal of variety in appearance, especially based on geographical location in South America?




South America is a pretty big place, and when plants of a certain general appearance have a large distribution area, the tendency is to name them differently. In fact, if you were to study two close species with distinct distribution areas in an unspoilt territory, you would probably find that where their distributions overlap there will be a seamless gradation of characters from one species to the other. Consider additionaly the fact that active Trichocerei were cultivated, hence causing them to disperse at a very different rate and distance than they would naturally; that in cultivation they were (and are) frequently hybridized or selected for some trait, for example rate of growth, that has little to do with the "natural" characteristics of the species; and finally, the fact that "new" or "appealing" names sell better than a standard T. macrogonus and because of this sellers frequently get criative on their id's, you'll have a situation where it's impossible to know what you have in hands.

I don't think it's possible to correctly identify most of the plants in cultivation, even supposing they do belong to a given species. My 2 cents (of an euro).


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Z. in sunny Lisbon, Portugal
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OfflineStraya
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Re: The Confusion About Trichocereus Species [Re: Grey Fox]
    #21185641 - 01/27/15 09:50 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

also interested in this

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InvisibleGrey Fox

Registered: 01/22/15
Posts: 2,665
Re: The Confusion About Trichocereus Species [Re: LSoares]
    #21188936 - 01/27/15 09:28 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)



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IT WAS ALL A DREAM

Edited by Grey Fox (03/14/15 08:17 AM)

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Offlineintelligentlife
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Re: The Confusion About Trichocereus Species [Re: Grey Fox]
    #21189576 - 01/28/15 12:13 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Business: Names sell, clones may be what-ever.
Taxonmy: Big mess of names what professionals trying to update constantly.

Afaik cuzcoensis is today t. peruvianus var. cuzcoensis.

OP: Picture would help, there have been confusion between cuzco and KK242 spiny peruvian cactus.

That peruvian KK242 cactus have almost similar spikes to cuzco, but it have two centrals, not one. One grow up and one down.

Some people will use those cuzco-look plants as sacrament, they are not all same clone and most of them have low levels of mescaline but some may be potent as well..

As adult age, cuzcoensis and peruvanus is more harder to tell apart from another, some peruvianus strains is easier because of spines is clearly different. Some peruvianus still have cuzcoensis style of look.

So far (afaik) peruvianus have been gathegorized to variants, depends what area they are from. One field have own peruvianus variant, one location may have another. Also humans may have mixed up a bit those plants by moving them in long term.

Most commonly active trichs can be found from only human build ruins, in the past humans have been moved cuttings and seeds and grow their own on their backyard.

Also it may depend where you are from.. Different continents have few different common clones or few common clones, in EU t. pachanoi plants will change times to times. T. peruvianus can be get as seedling what isn't clearly cuzco plants, "big spined peruvianus" is most likely cuzco. Even cuzcoensis cactus have been come in mail when person have asked t. bridgesii.

Anyway, even vendors don't give a fuck about species. Selling this and that. Well most vendors don't primaly sell mescaline so naming a cactus what-ever isn't a big problem. If name is correct and real, not invented by vendor itself.

If your trying to look potent cactus, you need to just try find and buy several different clones and cut one of them later and try it. If one foot of cacti don't give an effect, not even thresold, then it's not potent.

There are very spiky cactus around with high % of mescaline. I mean those peruvianus look like cuzco, they have a littlebit different appearance as total compared to cuzcoensis cactus.

I've got effects from cuzcoensis-looking cacti years ago. But it was weak, I still know there are more potent ones around if you are lucky to find one.

I would try t. pachanoi/bridgesii if your intentions is to get effects of mescaline. T. Peruvianus can be get as "real one" but you need to now your vendor.

In usa one nursery sell t. peruvianus label plants, seeds is probably collected from the wild By random or something..  don't know much. Beautiful plant, kinda fool vendor tho.

Most EU Nurseries have p. torch as real one but also as cuzcoensis. Finding a potent plant is just collection of (diffarent)cuttings and then test some of them to find out what is potent.:sun:

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InvisibleGrey Fox

Registered: 01/22/15
Posts: 2,665
Re: The Confusion About Trichocereus Species [Re: intelligentlife]
    #21190283 - 01/28/15 08:16 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)



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IT WAS ALL A DREAM

Edited by Grey Fox (03/14/15 08:17 AM)

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