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Offlinehoffzl01
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Freedom Fungus - First time grow needs opinions
    #21164481 - 01/22/15 07:30 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Hey all - First time cultivator here.  I've been reading your boards for weeks and read most of Stamet's works...ready to try my hand.

So I'm deployed to the sandy and sunny part of our planet, and decided I wanted to try growing some oyster mushrooms here.  I ordered a grow kit instead of spawn or spores, to get my initial sample from.  I've also ordered some basic materials (agar, petri dishes, scalpals, etc).

So I need opinions and suggestions on the following plan.  Anything is appreciated...even if you think there's not a chance in H### this will work..I'd like to know.

Keep in mind...even basic laboratory sterilization is close to impossible, as I live and work in dusty sandy tents.

- Grow Blue Oysters out with a kit (dont see too much of a problem here, pretty straight forward.  get it wet, keep it humid, grow it out)
- harvest fully grown mushrooms...keep good samples...cook and enjoy the rest.
- make spore prints from good fruits / make tissue plates from good fruits
- *** What do you guys/gals think about the feasibility of using cooked ramen broth supplemented with sugar or weak coffee as Agar?  It's about the only consistent carbohydrate source I can get my hands on besides paper products
- *** I have no idea how to do any basic sterilization for the agar medium.  we have to get creative here!  I have a coffee maker and a lighter. :smile:  mushroom McGyver style.
-  I want to practice my technique for isolating strains, but that might have to wait until I get home...as I imagine I would really be practicing my technique for managing stress as my plates get continuously contaminated.
- If I can make successful agar plates, I want to try store bought microwave popcorn as the substrate for grain spawn.  We have more than a small country could ever eat.  I can use empty bottled water containers, and coffee cans as "jars". Ideas?
- The goal is to use all of the boxes that we receive care packages in, as the bulk substrate.  They end up in the trash, and I have a hunch that if I can supplement them in the right way..the shredded boxes might make good mushroom food.  (probably good bacterial food as well, but we'll see)

1)  Any ideas on how to get some basic pasteur/sterilization going with a microwave, a coffee maker, and nothing but plastic bottles?

2)  Will those substrates work?  I'd love to get to the point that we can grill up some delicious mushrooms grown on the overabundance of unused crap we have laying around. 

Thanks!

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InvisibleHelnak
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Re: Freedom Fungus - First time grow needs opinions [Re: hoffzl01]
    #21164565 - 01/22/15 07:51 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

I remodeled my kitchen a few years back, and while I was without proper appliances I learned that Styrofoam can be nuked long enough to boil water.  It may be able to last long enough for partial sterilization?  Just a thought.

As for the cardboard, it would probably make a great substrate.  I have never used it solely for a substrate, but I have had culture samples start to pin and fruit from small wedges. 

After your grow kit fruits, take a mushroom that has some visible mycelia at the base of the stem and keep it wrapped up and clean.  Now split a piece of cardboard so the corrugation is visible.  Dampen inside of cardboard, sandwich your clean stipe in the cardboard.  Tuck away somewhere relatively clean and out of dusty winds.  Wait 2-4 days and the mycelia should be spreading up the cardboard.  Use several of these as spawn for bulk.

Edited by Helnak (01/22/15 08:07 PM)

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Offlinehoffzl01
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Re: Freedom Fungus - First time grow needs opinions [Re: Helnak] * 1
    #21164659 - 01/22/15 08:06 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Well noted Helnak.  I appreciate it. I do have Styrofoam coffee cups.  I considered just nuking the liquids (with agar in it already) long enough to achieve boil, but I didn't know if a quick boil was enough.  And then pouring while still hot into dishes cleaned with isopropyl alcohol.  Letting it firm up as it cools. I might have to twist a few arms to get some ISA though. It's certainly better than nothing.


--------------------
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OfflinePsilicon
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Re: Freedom Fungus - First time grow needs opinions [Re: hoffzl01]
    #21164834 - 01/22/15 08:35 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

There's a whole lot to reply to here.  I like a challenge, but IMO you're going to need to meet us halfway and procure a pressure cooker somehow.  Consult the dog robber for one of the people in charge.  He'll be able to rustle you up one, I'm sure.

FYI, we also have a gourmet and edibles section, where you can get advice more tailored to the species you're looking to grow, but I think on the whole we're adequate to answer your questions about oysters and agar.

Quote:

hoffzl01 said:
- *** What do you guys/gals think about the feasibility of using cooked ramen broth supplemented with sugar or weak coffee as Agar?  It's about the only consistent carbohydrate source I can get my hands on besides paper products





I really highly doubt that.  I've used corn starch, grain water, oat flour, potato flakes, potato water, table sugar, cane sugar, powdered dextrose, light malt extract, Chinese maltose syrup, Karo and maple syrup.  I'm sure you can find something sweet.  :grin:  If you like, you can use a dog's breakfast of ingredients.  Or, if you feed your dog kibble, you can use a dog's breakfast FOR ingredients.

Quote:

hoffzl01 said:
Keep in mind...even basic laboratory sterilization is close to impossible, as I live and work in dusty sandy tents.




Do you have a stove?  If not, a hot plate?  If not, a grill?  With a little skill you can use a PC on any of those, but a coffee machine just won't do.


Quote:

hoffzl01 said:
-  I want to practice my technique for isolating strains, but that might have to wait until I get home...as I imagine I would really be practicing my technique for managing stress as my plates get continuously contaminated.




No, you can do this.  Look up pictures of still air boxes, and figure out how to rig one up out of a cardboard box, saran wrap and duct tape. 

Quote:

hoffzl01 said:
- If I can make successful agar plates, I want to try store bought microwave popcorn as the substrate for grain spawn.  We have more than a small country could ever eat.  I can use empty bottled water containers, and coffee cans as "jars". Ideas?




Those containers won't hold up to the heat necessary to properly sterilize.  Popcorn is a pretty bad spawn, but I've used it and it can work.


--------------------
Agar - what, why and how?  Everything a beginner needs to know.
Oat Prep Tek
Bored?  Please take one of my experiments off my hands.

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Offlinehoffzl01
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Re: Freedom Fungus - First time grow needs opinions [Re: Psilicon]
    #21164954 - 01/22/15 08:58 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

yeah sorry for the length of the post.  All good points Griegen. 

Quote:

FYI, we also have a gourmet and edibles section, where you can get advice more tailored to the species you're looking to grow, but I think on the whole we're adequate to answer your questions about oysters and agar.




I considered going there, but seeing as I'm restricted to what's available, I didn't care much for what's "proper" for the species.  I'm gonna try to make it do what I want.  But nature has a way of ruining plans.

I can work with that list of ingredients you've used for agar.  I have a 40 square foot shelf of nothing but snacks and sweets sitting behind me.  I can probably even track down some instant potato flakes.  I hadn't considered that.  I appreciate your input 

I dont think I'm going to be able to get a pressure cooker.  There is a grill available, but I was trying to avoid the inevitable questions that would raise with my superiors.  "Does anyone know why Sarge is boiling 2 boxes of potato flakes and dog food on our grill?"  Hot plates are out of the questions here.  Something about fire hazards and death/destruction...whatever.  :smile:

That being said, I agree with you that I'm going to have to find something better than the coffee maker.  Or accept a very high amount of contam loss.  I'm not looking to start a mold factory in the desert though.

If you've used popcorn for grain spawn before with success, I will try it.  I dont mind if the run is slower, as long as the myc can still grow healthy on it.  I've run through the list of supplements, and there's not many I'm going to be able to acquire easily.  customs can be a PiTA

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OfflinetaGyo
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Re: Freedom Fungus - First time grow needs opinions [Re: hoffzl01]
    #21164979 - 01/22/15 09:02 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

IMO get something else. Popcorn has a mess of problems that other grains don't have but VDG is giving you solid advice :thumbup:


--------------------
Gyo's Better Grows
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OfflinePsilicon
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Re: Freedom Fungus - First time grow needs opinions [Re: hoffzl01]
    #21165106 - 01/22/15 09:27 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Sorry, man, but to do agar and grain work, you're going to need to sterilize, and for our purposes that means autoclaving or pressure cooking. No matter where you are, they sell pressure cookers there.  If you PM me your general location, I might be able to help you track down something.  If not, then our hands are kind of tied.


--------------------
Agar - what, why and how?  Everything a beginner needs to know.
Oat Prep Tek
Bored?  Please take one of my experiments off my hands.

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Offlinemushpunx
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Re: Freedom Fungus - First time grow needs opinions [Re: Psilicon]
    #21165308 - 01/22/15 10:13 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Yea all these guys are right. You can pasturize substrate in a pot, and if you have a pot with a lid you can steam sterilize BRF. But not agar or grain spawn.

Well, actually Ive read you can sterilize grain spawm w steam but it takes about 8 hours. If your absolutely reluctant *not saying you are* to shell out sixty bux for a starter PC you could look into this maybe


--------------------

Amateur Mycologists United
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Offlinehoffzl01
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Re: Freedom Fungus - First time grow needs opinions [Re: mushpunx]
    #21165791 - 01/23/15 01:40 AM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Awesome responses all.  I really appreciate it.  Let me try to sum up

1) if I want to go agar or grain spawn...sterilize (pressure cooker or autoclave) or dont do it.
2) I MIGHT get away with going cardboard to bulk substrate, but not likely.  And If I got away with it...it wouldn't be manageable long term.  i.e. re-spawns from younger cultures.
3) I need a hood...which I can manage.  I have plenty of blower motors laying around and plenty of building materials. 
4) My substrate choices COULD work, but probably wont yield optimum results.

Just for full disclosure...despite all of this excellent advice.  You know i'm trying it anyways.  the process is fascinating.  and I'm going to have some fun with it.

I'm not "reluctant" to get a pressure cooker at all mushpunx...I just dont have a reliable source of heating it.  However, we have portable diesel engine driven heaters...that can put out 250 degrees.  I'm going to try to build a steam box for pasteurization.  mount the output of that thing directly to the box, keep the contents moist...and see what happens.  But again...you guys seem to suggest that still wont be good enough for agar/grain.

Excellent feedback.  saved me alot of time already.


--------------------
He's not the sharpest cookie in the cupboard.  What?

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InvisibleTheEaglesGift
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Re: Freedom Fungus - First time grow needs opinions [Re: hoffzl01]
    #21165975 - 01/23/15 03:58 AM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Buy a hot plate off amazing for your PC.

Cadco brand. They're beast.

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Offlinemushpunx
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Re: Freedom Fungus - First time grow needs opinions [Re: TheEaglesGift]
    #21166609 - 01/23/15 09:22 AM (9 years, 11 months ago)

What's a steam box? I guess it depends on what type/how much substrate you need to pasturize.


As far as a hood goes dude, you dont *need* it. Honestly its more of a luxury. I mean if you have the means build one! I did and it's the best!

But most growers on here, many with way more skill and experience tham me use a Still Air Box. You can make one in ten minutes, for 10 dollars, and you can do all your grain to grain or agar work in there. Anything you would do in front of a hood. I say start w this, learm stechnique and in spare time work on a hood!


--------------------

Amateur Mycologists United
AMU Q&A

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Offlinehoffzl01
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Re: Freedom Fungus - First time grow needs opinions [Re: mushpunx]
    #21167764 - 01/23/15 03:29 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Steam Box

Instead of using steam from the pressure cooker.  I can use either a gas turbine generator (1400 degrees exhaust temperature) or a portable ground heater (275 degree air) to heat water and direct the steam with fuel line or similar tubing.  When we have down time I'll find junk parts to put something together.  It's amazing the amount of stuff people throw away.

I'll go wit the still air box mushpunx.  If you think it sufficient.  I ordered some birdseed for grain spawn.  And I ordered some hard wood fuel pellets, gypsum, and wheat bran...going to play around with that and the trash cardboard to find a good bulk substrate.  I also might just skip the grain spawn all together, and run clones out on cardboard, and go straight to Unicorn bags with bulk substrate.  Still deciding.

I'm also still concerned with how I'm going to do spore inoculations.  I'll have to work on the pressure cooker/hot plate setup.  Even though I'm not supposed to have it.  I can clone for a little while, but I'm not sure when senescence is going to set in.  If it's a trash strain I'm getting in the kit, I could see problems in the first clone I do.  Who knows.

Oh...and for anyone wondering how I have so much time being deployed...I'm a mechanic.  If I have a lot of free time, it means I've done my job well.  :p

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Offlinemushpunx
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Re: Freedom Fungus - First time grow needs opinions [Re: hoffzl01]
    #21167880 - 01/23/15 04:06 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Yea dude in this hobby simpler is usually better. The most important thing is to be able to make clean incoculamt and clean spawn.

And for the most part that entails agar work, good sterile techniaue, good grain prep and pressure cooker cycles.

Large scale pasturization is accheviable in a bunch of ways and its the easier part. Good clean grain spawn is everything


--------------------

Amateur Mycologists United
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OfflinePsilicon
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Re: Freedom Fungus - First time grow needs opinions [Re: mushpunx]
    #21168080 - 01/23/15 05:04 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

:whathesaid:  With clean grain spawn you can get away with a lot.  Without it you can't get away with much.  Admittedly oysters are a hardier species, but superspawning even that species doesn't tend to work out well.


--------------------
Agar - what, why and how?  Everything a beginner needs to know.
Oat Prep Tek
Bored?  Please take one of my experiments off my hands.

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Offlinehoffzl01
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Re: Freedom Fungus - First time grow needs opinions [Re: Psilicon]
    #21224047 - 02/04/15 12:07 AM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Not trying to bump.  But I wanted to document this.  If anything it may show just how robust mycellium can be.

My supplies arrived...it's not much but it's a start.

So the Blue Oyster grow kit I ordered is effectively a bag of fully colonized supplemented sawdust substrate.  With instructions to cut an "X" in the bag,
soak it for 8 hours, then keep it moist twice a day until it fruits.  Pretty standard.  I didn't feel like waiting for it to fruit to have fun....so......

I understand sterilization is a HUGE problem in this setup...but I'm working with what I have.  I have not obtained a pressure cooker yet, and
fully understand that is the best...if not the ONLY way, to be sure.  But I'm bored...so here we go.




Procedure 1:  Agar transfer
*Prepared agar
- One package of ramen (just the noodles!) boiled in 16 ounces of water in the microwave
- drain and filter to obtain the resulting liquid.  (carbohydrate/starch)

- withdraw and measure required amount of liquid.  I was only doing about 4 plates so I withdrew 100ml

- placed in separate plastic container, added 5% by volume "Heinz Breakfast Syrup" (mostly corn syrup and sugar, with a little salt)

- added appropriate amount of agar (10g per 500ml = 2tsp per 500ml = 2g per 100ml)
- returned to microwave until just before boiling (small bubbles appear and stay, occasionally rise to surface)  I didn't want to risk
carmelizing the sugars, but gain some semblance of sterilization.
* Poured agar plates
- Allowed agar mixture to cool for 2 minutes before sucking it into 100ml syringe, and delivering to plates that were previously
wiped down with isopropyl alcohol and left covered.
- Performed under cardboard cover...but I wouldn't call it a still air box.  Just to keep heavy settling particles out.


- Allowed plates to cool and set for 15 minutes.  No large condensation drops and firmness was correct.  I considered it a success so far
- Removed small (pencil eraser sized) pieces of mycellium from grow kit using alcohol sterilized utility knife.
- Quickly lift petri dish lid and deposit mycellium...gently pressing into agar.  Close lid.  Sealed with 1 inch wide stip of aluminum
foil all around the edge of dish.
- Re-sterilize knife, repeat.
- Stored in dark corner (still some ambient light).


Procedure 2:  Liquid cultures
Breakfast Syrup LC
- prepared 500ml bottled water in plastic container.
- Added 5% by volume "Heinz Breakfast Syrup
- Made two 3/8" holes in plastic container lid.
- Filled holes with polyfill

- Sealed container and microwaved to slow boil 6-7 minutes
- Allowed container to return to room temp.  leave lid on!
- Alcohol sterilized utility knife and removed small piece of mycellium from grow kit
- slightly cracked lid and deposited mycellium.  slow swirl to mix thoroughly. 
- sealed container lid edges with alcohol rubbed aluminum foil.

Sugar/salt LC
- prepared 500ml bottled water in plastic container
- Added 5% by volume "N'Joy Pure Sugar" (I had it laying around)
- Added small pinch of salt to inhibit bacterial growth
- Microwaved to slow boil
- inoculated same as above in similar container as above
- Sealed container in same manner

Procedure 3: Cardboard Clone
- Needed to expand the mycellium from the initial grow kit using cardboard
- Soaked rougly 6" x 3" pieces of cardboard in 3% hydrogen peroxide for 15 minutes
- drained peroxide and rinsed cardboard with bottled water, drained water
- Ensured loose water was shaken from cardboard
- Gently peeled back layers to expose the corrugated section inside each piece
- Placed nice thick mycellium from top of grow kit onto corrugated section, replaced top piece of cardboard
- Repeat for each piece of cardboard
- Stacked them in plastic container with gas exchange holes (poly filled 3/8 holes on lid) and sealed with aluminum foil
- Placed in dark corner at rougly 70 degrees.

NOTES: 
- Obviously I am worried about sterilization.  I expect to grow mostly contaminates...but I am insanely curious to see if it can be done.
When I return home I will do the whole lab setup.  Can't do it here.
- I am worried about the preservatives in the breakfast syrup interfering with the mycellium.  But I was unable to find honey, karo, or
any of the traditional additives to make agar and liquid cultures.  That's why I attempted the sugar/salt LC.  Keep it more natural.
- Just waiting now to see what happens.  We will call this Day 0. (February 2, 2015)

Day 3 report - Agar plates are showing signs of growth.
(The brown and black flecks are just substrate that was sticking to the mycellium.  sawdust pieces, as well as a couple pieces of ramen noodle)  Makes me believe the recipe for the agar is good, but may still contaminate.  The mycellium is actually growing up and out of the small impression left from pressing it in.  Breakfast syrup liquid culture is showing signs of growth as well.  The mycellium clumps floating in it are getting extremely "fuzzy" around the edges.  I doubt cardboard is doing anything yet, but I dont want to open it and risk contam until at least 2 weeks.

Day 5 - Plates still growing.  breakfast syrup LC is doing well.  Cardboard clone is growing well without contam.  Cardboard inoculated with half the grow kit is performing

Edited by hoffzl01 (02/05/15 05:59 PM)

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InvisibleNumeroEno
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Re: Freedom Fungus - First time grow needs opinions [Re: hoffzl01]
    #21224089 - 02/04/15 12:23 AM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Dude, that oyster kit is not sterile. Trust me.  Spawn the kit to cardboard in a bigger bucket lined with a shopping bag, let it colonize, and then do this.






--------------------

:gd_icon:  Let it grow! Let it grow! Greatly yield!  :gd_icon:
What shall we say, shall we call it by a name
As well to count the angels dancing on a pin
Water bright as the sky from which it came
And the name is on the earth that takes it in

DOG FOOD AGAR

MY ELECTRIC INOCULATION LOOP

Edited by NumeroEno (02/04/15 12:24 AM)

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InvisibleNumeroEno
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Re: Freedom Fungus - First time grow needs opinions [Re: NumeroEno]
    #21224098 - 02/04/15 12:26 AM (9 years, 11 months ago)

IMO if you want to get a clean culture from that kit, take a print and clean that up on agar. That's what I'm gonna do.


--------------------

:gd_icon:  Let it grow! Let it grow! Greatly yield!  :gd_icon:
What shall we say, shall we call it by a name
As well to count the angels dancing on a pin
Water bright as the sky from which it came
And the name is on the earth that takes it in

DOG FOOD AGAR

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Offlinehoffzl01
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Re: Freedom Fungus - First time grow needs opinions [Re: NumeroEno]
    #21224113 - 02/04/15 12:30 AM (9 years, 11 months ago)

I like that idea.  I'm gonna have to do something.  The kit is the only thing NOT growing.  It's like 10% humidity all the time where I'm at.  So I can't keep the thing moist even in a clear plastic bag.  They mycellium is already getting pretty dried out.  A bucket with plastic over it might be the way to go.  Thanks for the input. I need to get some fruits off of it before my tour is over, and obviously I can't get any prints until I can get something to fruit.  when/If the plates grow out, I'll need to have a solid plan for the bulk substrate/fruiting.  But yeah, ultimately I want some spores to play with.  I want to do LC's with multispore. I only got the kit to get me my initial fruits.


--------------------
He's not the sharpest cookie in the cupboard.  What?

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Offlinehoffzl01
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Re: Freedom Fungus - First time grow needs opinions [Re: NumeroEno]
    #21224136 - 02/04/15 12:39 AM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Alright, I thought about it for 20 minutes..tomorrow I'll transfer that kit to a nice sized tupperware with some cardboard.  break the kit up in that thing.  I can control the moisture better, and still get some light and FAE when it fully colonizes.  good idea Numero.  Maybe I'll make a tiny version of a Monotub with some 4 quart tupperware.  put larger holes in it that I can tape shut during colonization.  then uncover/poly-fill when it's time to fruit.  keep more moisture in but still get FAE.


--------------------
He's not the sharpest cookie in the cupboard.  What?

Edited by hoffzl01 (02/04/15 12:46 AM)

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InvisibleNumeroEno
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Re: Freedom Fungus - First time grow needs opinions [Re: hoffzl01]
    #21224169 - 02/04/15 12:55 AM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Oysters don't do very well in monotubs. Here's what I did with my kit:

I fruited the first flush out of the kit per the instructions.
I shredded, soaked, and pasteurized a pretty big cardboard box
I got a 2 gallon bucket, drilled a hole in the lid and stuffed it with poly, and lined it with a plain old plastic grocery bag
I then put alternating layers of cardboard and the crumbled (and dunked) sawdust block in the bucket until it was full 
I let it colonize for about 2 weeks
I took the shopping bag out of the bucket, slit the bag in places that looked like good pinning sites, and put it in my greenhouse to fruit

I'll post another pic in the morning. They grow so fast!


--------------------

:gd_icon:  Let it grow! Let it grow! Greatly yield!  :gd_icon:
What shall we say, shall we call it by a name
As well to count the angels dancing on a pin
Water bright as the sky from which it came
And the name is on the earth that takes it in

DOG FOOD AGAR

MY ELECTRIC INOCULATION LOOP

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