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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Anonymous

Re: The young are becoming less liberal [Re: GazzBut]
    #2101006 - 11/13/03 11:34 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Do you agree that overpaid management etc could cause a similar problem as the minimum wage?

not at all. the amount that managers are paid has nothing to do with how much workers are paid... if you're saying that by paying managers more, they have less money to pay to workers, you need to rethink that. the surplusses that can be caused by pricing are due to pricing something above its market value, not below.


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

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Re: The young are becoming less liberal [Re: ]
    #2101016 - 11/13/03 11:37 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

So if the government artificially increase costs it means unemployment but if employers choose to pay a section of their workforce inflated wages (artificially increasing costs) it has no negative effect? Im sorry but that is obviously nonsense.


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Always Smi2le


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Anonymous

Re: The young are becoming less liberal [Re: GazzBut]
    #2101020 - 11/13/03 11:40 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

for various reasons, it is actually quite common for companies to pay managers more than the market price. the "inflated wage" your talking about is that paid to the managers, and this can and does cause problems for those seeking managerial positions. are we talking about them now?


Edited by mushmaster (11/13/03 11:41 AM)


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OfflineJameZTheNewbie
The Mahatma OfZalu

Registered: 05/24/02
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Re: The young are becoming less liberal [Re: GazzBut]
    #2101021 - 11/13/03 11:40 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

i think people are too distracted to be ethier. then their are those who arent distracted.


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Mice have feelings


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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: The young are becoming less liberal [Re: ]
    #2101022 - 11/13/03 11:41 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

if that sounds cruel to you, fine, but it's a far shot from how the camps were run.

Not at all, "the strongest" survived in the camps too. It's something Primo Levi remarked on when he said "The best of us died". By that he meant the ones who cared for their fellow man, who would share their last peice of bread with the starving were the ones who died.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineJameZTheNewbie
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Re: The young are becoming less liberal [Re: JameZTheNewbie]
    #2101025 - 11/13/03 11:41 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

to be right or left*


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Mice have feelings


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Anonymous

Re: The young are becoming less liberal [Re: Xlea321]
    #2101028 - 11/13/03 11:43 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Not at all, "the strongest" survived in the camps too.

so that makes this a good analogy?

please alex...


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: The young are becoming less liberal [Re: ]
    #2101538 - 11/13/03 01:58 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

for various reasons, it is actually quite common for companies to pay managers more than the market price.




Yeah greed being the main factor.

I dont see how an artificial rise in costs in one area causes unemployment whereas an artificial rise in costs in another has no effect.


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Always Smi2le


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: The young are becoming less liberal [Re: ]
    #2101649 - 11/13/03 02:27 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

so that makes this a good analogy?

You can't see any similarity between the "let them starve and die" philosophy?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Anonymous

Re: The young are becoming less liberal [Re: Xlea321]
    #2101785 - 11/13/03 03:00 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

You can't see any similarity between the "let them starve and die" philosophy?

no alex, because in the camps, people were starved by way of force. they were kept there by way of force, and they were not permitted to work for themselves.

in the camps, people were FORCED TO STARVE. the nazis did not "let them starve", they forced them to.

the situation in the free market is entirely different. no one is held by force, no one is forced to work, no one is forced not to work, and no one is forced to give up the fruits of their labor.

i'm saying that people do not have a RIGHT to steal from other people, even if they are starving.

this is entirely different than holding people in captivity and forcefully depriving them of their right to work or to keep the fruits of their work.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: The young are becoming less liberal [Re: ]
    #2101885 - 11/13/03 03:29 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

people were starved by way of force no one is forced to work

No-one was forced to work in the camps either - you had the choice to either work or die. The same decision you wish to foist on everyone.

i'm saying that people do not have a RIGHT to steal from other people

"Stealing" is a very emotional term mush. The tax system is legal. Certainly most people are happy to pay tax to ensure some quality of life in society.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Anonymous

Re: The young are becoming less liberal [Re: Xlea321]
    #2101958 - 11/13/03 03:49 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

No-one was forced to work in the camps either

bullshit.

you had the choice to either work or die. The same decision you wish to foist on everyone.

alex... that's how it works. you are a human being, and as such, you must have food to eat and warm shelter to live in. these things do not simply provide themselves on their own; human beings must work to produce them. human life can only be sustained through productive effort. if you cannot do this on your own, and no one is helping you voluntarily, this gives you no RIGHT to steal from others who can.

the concentration camps were different from the free market. there is no coercion in the free market. in the concentration camps, coercion is the name of the game. let it go.

"Stealing" is a very emotional term mush.

perhaps, but i am not using it as such. i am using it to describe the process of taking something from someone without their voluntary consent. there's nothing emotional or ambiguous about that definition.

The tax system is legal. Certainly most people are happy to pay tax to ensure some quality of life in society.

which means nothing. most people are happy to incarcerate drug users and the like as well. to what extent the majority is willing to submit to the government says nothing.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: The young are becoming less liberal [Re: ]
    #2102034 - 11/13/03 04:07 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

bullshit.

Eh? They didn't have the choice between working or death? What are you talking about?

alex... that's how it works

Well, lets not be hasty, thank god that ISN'T how it works except in your libertarian pamphlets.

Could you let us know what happens to someone in your brave new world who refuses to work?

if you cannot do this on your own, and no one is helping you voluntarily

So a disabled guy who suddenly loses his parents in a car crash starves to death in your world? Do kindness and compassion have any place in this "New Order" of yours?

i am using it to describe the process of taking something from someone without their voluntary consent.

The vast majority of people don't consider tax stealing and give their voluntary consent to it.

We arn't going to get 100% "voluntary consent" on anything. Comparing it to the drug war is pretty specious. 100 years ago the vast majority of people had no problem with selling heroin over the counter. It's a different issue.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Anonymous

Re: The young are becoming less liberal [Re: Xlea321]
    #2102085 - 11/13/03 04:19 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Eh? They didn't have the choice between working or death? What are you talking about?

they were forced. another human being initiated force against them. if someone pulls a knife on you and says, "YOUR WALLET OR YOUR LIFE", you've got a choice, yes, but you are being forced.

if you are on a desert island alone, you must shimmy up the tree to get coconuts. you must do it to live, but no one is FORCING you.

Well, lets not be hasty, thank god that ISN'T how it works except in your libertarian pamphlets.

did you read what i said? because the basic necessities must be produced by human effort, human beings MUST work if they are to survive.

Could you let us know what happens to someone in your brave new world who refuses to work?

they forfeit anything they would have gained by working.

So a disabled guy who suddenly loses his parents in a car crash starves to death in your world?

unless there are people to voluntarily help him, yes. why should anyone be FORCED to help?

Do kindness and compassion have any place in this "New Order" of yours?

oh, there is plenty of room for kindness and compassion. stealing from people is not kind, nor is it compassionate. voluntary charity is.

The vast majority of people don't consider tax stealing and give their voluntary consent to it.

are taxes voluntary?


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Registered: 11/29/01
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Re: The young are becoming less liberal [Re: ]
    #2116272 - 11/17/03 01:54 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

no one is forced to give up the fruits of their labor.



Except for taxpayers. They are robbed every hour.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Anonymous

Re: The young are becoming less liberal [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2116369 - 11/17/03 02:16 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

"the situation in the free market..."


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