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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: There is no such thing as true evil. [Re: akira_akuma]
    #21161973 - 01/22/15 10:24 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Changing your position in the middle of a debate is a major hindrance to reaching a resolution.




dude, are you kidding? are you really?

look at my posts again genius, i've never said there was a "true evil"; in fact, i always posited in every single instance of it's mention that "if there is no 'true good' than it follows 'there is no true evil'". everytime. because you're arguing about the wrong thing. your premise of making everything black and white concerning denotation of concepts, doesn't fit within the argument i'm presenting. read it better next time.
doi! (that is, if you're going to respond to me)

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
ok, so then you're arguing for the sake of arguing, got it.

if human concepts are natural, then so is evil, so then therefore there IS evil. you just blew away your argument in agreement with Icelander. congrats.




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OfflineWebster10
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Re: There is no such thing as true evil. [Re: akira_akuma]
    #21162003 - 01/22/15 10:29 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
ok, so then you're arguing for the sake of arguing, got it.

if human concepts are natural, then so is evil, so then therefore there IS evil. you just blew away your argument in agreement with Icelander. congrats.



maybe to some, other people will naturally conclude it isn't evil. therefore not truly evil. .......again?


--------------------
:leaf: :usa:

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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: There is no such thing as true evil. [Re: Webster10]
    #21162025 - 01/22/15 10:33 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

but there is still evil though, right?

so that is the true evil; that which is evil. is my argument still not sinking in?

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OfflineWebster10
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Re: There is no such thing as true evil. [Re: akira_akuma]
    #21162033 - 01/22/15 10:34 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

look at my posts again genius, i've never said there was a "true evil"



:orly:

Quote:

of evil? um... no. but here, look to some of the lovely people that have been condemned as evil, and you'll see some factual evidence.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/index.html

they've done all sorts of truly evil things and cannot be accounted for other than as "true evil". if you find an alternative, please let me know.



I'm literally just sitting back and laughing :rofl2:

Quote:

because you're arguing about the wrong thing. your premise of making everything black and white concerning denotation of concepts, doesn't fit within the argument i'm presenting. read it better next time.
doi! (that is, if you're going to respond to me)



This topic is kind of black and white. Does or doesn't true evil exist? I personally would say that it doesn't and have provided more than enough explanation as to why I think this.


--------------------
:leaf: :usa:

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OfflineWebster10
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Re: There is no such thing as true evil. [Re: akira_akuma]
    #21162043 - 01/22/15 10:36 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

but there is still evil though, right?

so that is the true evil; that which is evil. is my argument still not sinking in?



Depends on who you're asking. In other words, it's subjective

You're still not making a relevant argument.


--------------------
:leaf: :usa:

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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: There is no such thing as true evil. [Re: Webster10]
    #21162308 - 01/22/15 10:55 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

there is no true evil, only evil, which humans have decided was evil, and sticks in a cultural paradigm of our civilization.

but that's true evil.

truth is in lies.

and you're oblivious to the actual argument here. you just wanna leave it at "it's subjective"; good, but when your mom gets brutally murdered, lets hope that it's all "subjective" an experience, for someone else. you won't feel bad, because you're above human labels.






seriously. i don't wish harm on your mom. maybe i could use a less extreme example... like a traffic jam? you could be stoic and say "the traffic doesn't annoy me", but... then you'd be lying to yourself, cause all you'd need is a little kid in the backseat crying to drive you over the edge, and say "yes, this is indeed bad, i hate this shit, this must be the face of true evil. the fact that i can't admit to myself i'm not above human labels, and think i can justify rationally that evil only exists in our minds, and that if i kill the kid right now, i'm not 'really' evil, just society calls me that."

:facepalm:

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InvisibleRahz
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Re: There is no such thing as true evil. [Re: akira_akuma]
    #21162659 - 01/22/15 11:40 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Well, the OP used the term true evil, obviously in contrast to something. True evil has traditionally been associated with the devil incarnate himself, or of being influenced by the devil himself. I don't suggest that's what you were getting at, though my argument was that evil is subjective which is what I thought we were debating, though you have since conceded that evil is subjective.

We have a subjective experience and no matter how horrible it would be for someone to murder my mother, my interpretation of the act would still be subjective. I'm not saying "don't get a rope" cause I might want to, but "evil" isn't a valid conclusion in a psychological evaluation.

I think as a matter of survival, demonizing or shooting first and asking questions later has it's benefits... although there's another line of reasoning that states the belief in "true evil" is responsible for much evil. Whether it's directed at an individual, a sex, an ethnic group, etc. demonizing a person or group doesn't result in the cessation of suffering or cultivating a greater understanding of the motivations that prevent humanity from leading more harmonious lives.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
I am      I feel      I do     I love I speak    I see    I know


“Science advances one funeral at a time”
~Max Planck

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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: There is no such thing as true evil. [Re: Rahz]
    #21162664 - 01/22/15 11:42 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

though you have since conceded that evil is subjective.



i never said it wasn't. i said and have maintained my argument as "evil is true evil, and that's as true as it gets; that true evil is evil. the concept of evil, not evil incarnate or anything of the sort, but just EVIL. by itself, no additions."

Quote:

but "evil" isn't a valid conclusion in a psychological evaluation.



you should re-read what i wrote, man. i said that even you don't think it was evil, subjectively, others will. :shrug:

Quote:


I think as a matter of survival, demonizing or shooting first and asking questions later has it's benefits... although there's another line of reasoning that states the belief in "true evil" is responsible for much evil. Whether it's directed at an individual, a sex, an ethnic group, etc. demonizing a person or group doesn't result in the cessation of suffering or cultivating a greater understanding of the motivations that prevent humanity from leading more harmonious lives.




sure, but it derides the idea of a virtuous, civil, and ideal lifestyle in a civilization. which is why we make these denotations, so that people can have some to point to and say what they just experienced is. doesn't matter in the long run if you can break a concept down, unless you get something new out of it, that is good. now we're talking philosophy. but no one is saying anything really new.

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InvisibleBill_Oreilly
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Re: There is no such thing as true evil. [Re: jimiandtheshroom27]
    #21163028 - 01/22/15 01:03 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

evil is just a word


what does exist, is evil acts. Pure evil acts, as well.

but that's subjective.


--------------------
Something there is mysteriously formed,
Existing before Heaven and Earth,
Silent, still, standing alone, unchanging,
All-pervading, unfailing,
I do not know its name; I call it tao.
If forced to give it a name, I call it
Great (ta). Being great, it flows out;
Flowing out means far-reaching;
Being far-reaching, it is said to return.


It's just a shot away..

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OfflineKinko
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Re: There is no such thing as true evil. [Re: akira_akuma]
    #21163332 - 01/22/15 02:31 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
everyone's got 20/20 hindsight. it's evil because it's wrong. you just just take evil out of the equation, it's still wrong.

and the Earth seriously doesn't care. you might care about the Earth, that doesn't mean the Earth appreciates it. you're not appeasing the Gods here.

all you're trying to do is justify that killing someone would be beneficial. so when do you get killed? you'd be doing the world a favor and us all, by lowering the population. if you feel this way, that is, why don't you do us all a favor. i won't be doing it though, because i'm not an unethical piece of doo doo. sometimes i say unethical things though, like Isis should just be bombed, and shit... but i don't take myself literally.

people getting killed is wrong, unless that person has committed to taking someone else's life... THEN it's ethical, if he gets killed by someone. because then you're saving that person from bearing the brunt of the other persons violence to harm. that person is trying to take away from what is amounts to a whole life, which is tantamount to taking the life a hundred or a thousand. it's all the same, that person is removing a piece of the whole of the good, so it is of an utmost evil. you can't get around it, just because you think that you can predict when something would be better off, if someone was dead, because killing is always wrong, evil and unethical.

logically you might figure "i'm doing the world a favor"... but you're not. not unless you off yourself. that might be ethical because it's not forcing anyone else to do anything, but clean up your shit and dirty corpse afterwards.


.                                this is nonsense in order for humans to live we need things like i dont know ? the ocean ? trees ? bees???? are you that blind that you dont know without nature there would be no --YOU-- hypocrate

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OfflineKinko
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Re: There is no such thing as true evil. [Re: Kinko]
    #21163361 - 01/22/15 02:41 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

the earth obviously cares since it hosts millions of species with water food and air ..... food being the key in that it feeds all next time you eat a fruit thank mother earth... not that i care its only simple observation

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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: There is no such thing as true evil. [Re: Kinko]
    #21163367 - 01/22/15 02:42 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Kinko said:
                                this is nonsense in order for humans to live we need things like i dont know ? the ocean ? trees ? bees???? are you that blind that you dont know without nature there would be no --YOU-- hypocrate



talking about morality here.

i am not defending ruining the planet, genius.

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OfflineKinko
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Re: There is no such thing as true evil. [Re: Webster10]
    #21163434 - 01/22/15 02:57 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

yes everyone knows killing is wrong but its necessary like everything else, evil/good are the samething you cant Have one without the other. black/white. male/female wrong/right .


evil/good is a watermelon and you are a baby in order for you to eat ( understand) it needs to be cut into little pieces and then you can eat it ( process it ).    its simply dumbed down for us simpletons of humans to try to understand what we call life .. i thought everyone knew that wtf i dont even have a ged

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OfflineWebster10
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Re: There is no such thing as true evil. [Re: Bill_Oreilly]
    #21163454 - 01/22/15 03:01 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Bill_Oreilly said:
evil is just a word


what does exist, is evil acts. Pure evil acts, as well.

but that's subjective.



Even bill can figure it out, try to keep up akira.

Well, the last sentence.


--------------------
:leaf: :usa:

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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: There is no such thing as true evil. [Re: Webster10]
    #21163560 - 01/22/15 03:29 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

you can't figure out what i'm saying.

the fact of their being a denoting of something being good, is subjective. but it's good and we feel it. just because you don't, is irrelevant to the point i'm trying to make here.

you aren't the one who needs to be convinced that something is good, because apparently you can go either way with how you define it. but people define something makes them feel something in a way that makes them feel better, is what we call good, and sometimes it's what we call evil, but all of that is subjective. but what we call evil is that which takes away from that "better" feeling and leaves us feeling worse off. that is why we have the words good, bad, and if you wanna argue about the subjective concept of the words, fine, but there is also a blatantly obvious objective concept, and that is a give and take that you simply seemingly cannot understand.

evil is just concept of something beyond the moral. it is a nuanced word. it's easy to get the concept confused.

evil is that which takes away from the "better", as i've laid out, and ISN'T subjective. it's pointless harm and destruction. it's like saying i wanna blow up a mall (seriously hypothetical) but then it's not for any particular reason, there is no "message", but i just wanted to do it because i wanted to, or because it'd be fun. yeah, the fun "is good, subjectively", but the rational isn't here nor there, it's evil because it's irrational and because it's taking away something that you can't give back, and which effectively harms other people whilst having no reason to do so. we're aren't talking about Rome, time travel or any other quibbles. we're talking about ontologically, we wouldn't have the word if there wasn't something to denote it to, and we do. which is why there is no "truer" evil then what evil is already, because it's not philosophical or moral issue. it's a word that berates the concept of morality's subjectivity. it's not good or bad. it's just evil. that's why we have the word.

hell call it malevolence, if it helps you. but that's not what we're talking about. we're talking about evil.

what you wanna do is strip all the meaning from the word and say that it isn't real. but you're stupidly wrong, and i've explained it to you i dunno how many times already.

this isn't "oh but Aladdin, he needed some bread"

this is Aladdin chopping the head of the tradesman and then making a sandwich out of him and the bread.

there is on rational for it, other than "evil" so that's why we have the word.

i've had enough ruminating on this subject. if you don't get it now, you never will.

let me just say for the record: read all my posts here if you want: they all state: a, good and bad are subjective qualities, which falls under moral standards b,there is no such thing as a "true evil" because that implies that there is a "false evil" but that isn't true. if someone said someone was evil but was wrong, they wouldn't be right about the use of the term to begin with and they'd be morally wrong in their presumption. what you are proposing is false equivalence, Webster. you propose that somehow "bad" and "evil" are mutually exclusive constructs that one somehow becomes the other, of course only subjectively, but this is where you are wrong. bad and evil are two different concepts that can overlap and misconstrue one another, especially if you are willing to be morally ambivalent.

so to summarize: a, good and bad is ambiguous without a moral construct and b, evil is an ethics issue, not a philosophical one, and if you want to make it one, you do nothing but dig a hole in the ground, with nothing to show for it.

Edited by akira_akuma (01/22/15 03:37 PM)

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: There is no such thing as true evil. [Re: akira_akuma]
    #21164127 - 01/22/15 05:58 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
and if humans just did what was natural all the time?






















there are reasons for human concepts.



We can only do what is natural all the time. There is nothing else.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: There is no such thing as true evil. [Re: Icelander]
    #21164157 - 01/22/15 06:03 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

yes, i know. that's why evil is a prevalent force in the world, and that's why we have moral constructs and we have a reason to uphold those values, and not break them down arbitrarily because you find a loophole in logic. unless you're planning on creating a new ethics, but waht is it? can i just grab someone up, fuck their asshole and then kill them? nope. Thank God, we're not natural all the time.

does this make me insane to have even uttered that? fuck yes, it sickens me, the words i've used. but this is what you're dealing with when "natural all the time" is the trodden path, and you take away objectivity.

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InvisibleRahz
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Re: There is no such thing as true evil. [Re: akira_akuma]
    #21164344 - 01/22/15 06:53 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

this is what you're dealing with when "natural all the time" is the trodden path, and you take away objectivity.




It depends on the person. Knowing evil is subjective doesn't sweeten the prospect of raping and killing someone for me. Calling evil objective is a lie meant to control the masses. Lies are evil. :satansmoking:


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
I am      I feel      I do     I love I speak    I see    I know


“Science advances one funeral at a time”
~Max Planck

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: There is no such thing as true evil. [Re: akira_akuma]
    #21164428 - 01/22/15 07:15 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
yes, i know. that's why evil is a prevalent force in the world, and that's why we have moral constructs and we have a reason to uphold those values, and not break them down arbitrarily because you find a loophole in logic. unless you're planning on creating a new ethics, but waht is it? can i just grab someone up, fuck their asshole and then kill them? nope. Thank God, we're not natural all the time.

does this make me insane to have even uttered that? fuck yes, it sickens me, the words i've used. but this is what you're dealing with when "natural all the time" is the trodden path, and you take away objectivity.





I have no idea wtf you are going on about?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlineakira_akuma
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Registered: 08/28/09
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Re: There is no such thing as true evil. [Re: Icelander]
    #21164828 - 01/22/15 08:34 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Quote:

this is what you're dealing with when "natural all the time" is the trodden path, and you take away objectivity.




It depends on the person. Knowing evil is subjective doesn't sweeten the prospect of raping and killing someone for me. Calling evil objective is a lie meant to control the masses. Lies are evil. :satansmoking:



which is also true. but truth begins in lies.


again, i have to explain that YOU =/= everyone else.

this is why we have concepts attached to words, and words aren't just jabberwocky.


Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

akira_akuma said:
yes, i know. that's why evil is a prevalent force in the world, and that's why we have moral constructs and we have a reason to uphold those values, and not break them down arbitrarily because you find a loophole in logic. unless you're planning on creating a new ethics, but waht is it? can i just grab someone up, fuck their asshole and then kill them? nope. Thank God, we're not natural all the time.

does this make me insane to have even uttered that? fuck yes, it sickens me, the words i've used. but this is what you're dealing with when "natural all the time" is the trodden path, and you take away objectivity.





I have no idea wtf you are going on about?



perhaps because i've had to reiterate myself over twenty times in this thread. :shrug:

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