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OfflineWebster10
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Re: There is no such thing as true evil. [Re: akira_akuma]
    #21158766 - 01/21/15 06:03 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
no, i know what you're saying. but i'm saying that we're humans and should only be concerned with humanities sake of what is good and evil.

killing people off the planet in an attempt to save something that can brush us off like fleas, but doesn't even care or think anything for us, is not rational. i opt for reason and rationality. not blithering over philosophical quandaries that hold no water.



The overpopulation of the Earth and over consumption of it's resources will cause nothing to be left for future generations. One could view an atrocity from the perspective that since it is depopulating the Earth, it could potentially actually be saving lives. Even if these lives haven't come into existence yet. This is just one perspective in which good can come of everything. There are several and according to any of them, there is no such thing as true evil. stop blithering over philosophical quandries that hold no water.


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: There is no such thing as true evil. [Re: Webster10]
    #21158860 - 01/21/15 06:23 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

yeah, there is not a "true evil" because an evil is and evil is and evil, turtles all the way down, you will never take away from the fact that an evil exists, and that ontologically if there is a "good" in your mind, then ultimately there is opposing force that beckons the good into existence. the "true evil" if there was one, would be your ignorance on the subject.

ethically speaking it is not a good thing to eliminate people off the Earth because ultimately it is not a good thing. period. the future generations don't exist yet, and they don't care.

again, you're trying to assert the quandary of what to do for future generations involves killing people off, but 1: there are better solutions, solutions we haven't even thought of yet, even; if we wanna start travelling time, and 2: it would not be considered wise, because those people one is killing off, will not take it willingly, and will rebel. unwilling and willing participants will be lost, and all due to a lost cause. the Earth can succeed us in generations past, without any human endeavor, but it is humanity we are in regard for, as humans ourselves. so we'll want to keep some of ourselves here; who then decides who stays and who goes? who commands who? when do we draw the line, where we say "this is all the people we need", and what is the outcome?

how is any of this proposed in your view, good, at all? and how is it not evil?

lets see if your theory hold any water.

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OfflineWebster10
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Re: There is no such thing as true evil. [Re: akira_akuma]
    #21159600 - 01/21/15 08:02 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

yeah, there is not a "true evil" because an evil is and evil is and evil, turtles all the way down, you will never take away from the fact that an evil exists, and that ontologically if there is a "good" in your mind, then ultimately there is opposing force that beckons the good into existence. the "true evil" if there was one, would be your ignorance on the subject.



Honestly can you start just talking like a normal human being? You are talking about turtles and trying to insult me in the process.

I'll try to explain it to you in a clearer way. You believe my ignorance on the subject is true evil. I believe you are ignorant and would like to point out that some people may agree with me. Because of this, my ignorance wouldn't be truly evil. It really cannot get more simple. This whole topic is subjective and also depends on what physical state someone is in. I'd love to hear some ethical philosophy after being stranded on a boat with someone for days on end with no food. Your ethics are completely dependent on your state of being. It is naive and frankly narcissistic to think that your own ethical beliefs while you are in a relatively well of state of being could qualify as being an absolute judge on what evil is or isn't. The opposing force of good is bad, not true evil. True evil implies the absence of good. Coming from hundreds of perspectives, good does come of everything. That doesn't implicate nothing can be bad. Stop with the straw man arguments already.

Quote:

ethically speaking it is not a good thing to eliminate people off the Earth because ultimately it is not a good thing. period. the future generations don't exist yet, and they don't care.



Claim: Ethically speaking it is not a good thing to eliminate people off the Earth
Evidence: Ultimately it is not a good thing.
*insert irrelevant comment about what a future generation thinks even though it is clear they don't think yet
:facepalm3:

"ethically speaking" exactly. That is one perspective that you seem so fixated on. Why? There is a plethora of perspectives through which, one could conclude that good, in a way, came from an ethically wrong act. I have given you more than one example.

I am really trying to dissect this part but there is really just a lack of content.

Quote:

again, you're trying to assert the quandary of what to do for future generations involves killing people off, but 1: there are better solutions, solutions we haven't even thought of yet, even; if we wanna start travelling time, and 2: it would not be considered wise, because those people one is killing off, will not take it willingly, and will rebel. unwilling and willing participants will be lost, and all due to a lost cause. the Earth can succeed us in generations past, without any human endeavor, but it is humanity we are in regard for, as humans ourselves. so we'll want to keep some of ourselves here; who then decides who stays and who goes? who commands who? when do we draw the line, where we say "this is all the people we need", and what is the outcome?





This paragraph is irrelevant. I'm not suggesting that as a serious tactic, are you even paying attention? I said, that because one being killed lowers the population, that in itself will lead to less resources being consumed. This will save resources for someone in the future who will use them. This could be applicable to someone born tomorrow. 1. Extremely irrelevant. I acknowledge that future civilizations will be more advanced... ok? 2. Also largely irrelevant. In that hypothetical scenario, you're only considering it from the point of view pertaining to only the participants. It can potentially, albeit minutely, affect other, yes humans and also other entities positively. You are saying that because something that's not good happens, it has to be true evil. Maybe this is bad when looked at ethically, but in so many other ways, it can be beneficial to others. The system now is pretty good. It has after all been developing for thousands of years.


Quote:

how is any of this proposed in your view, good, at all? and how is it not evil?



Say someone who is 61 in america is shot and dies. One less person taking my tax dollars for social security. That is good personally and for anyone else the pays taxes. I'm not saying a man's life was worth probably the .01 I'd save, but it is a real benefit of him dying. The act was not truly evil, because good came of it.

I have spent way too much time explaining it to you. If you can't get it after this, there's no hope. Continue your perpetual crave to argue points after they've been explained in peace, but I'm out :cheers:


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: There is no such thing as true evil. [Re: Webster10] * 1
    #21159770 - 01/21/15 08:41 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

good luck with all that.

people are evil, inherent. that's the fact you're missing here.

people eating one another on a boat is evil. that's the not the point though. not to you. to you you're flipping it the opposite way... "to them it's not evil, it's good because they need to eat."

no, they don't. and they certainly don't need to live. but if they can carry on whilst surviving on one another's flesh, then so be it. because humans are base creatures, whom exist to survive as an imperative to their being on this Earth.

you can keep trying to dissect the issue, or not. you won't find a "true evil", as much as can find a "true good".

like i said, evil is just evil. and if you don't think people eating another person isn't evil, then you don't need the word evil. good for you. but we still gave it a reason to exist, and that's to explain why people do bad things. it's because the world is evil, and that's maybe due to our preconceptions, sure; you can babble about that all you want... doesn't make evil any more ethical, under any circumstances, because the way humans see the world is with the aim for good, because good is what gets them good. doesn't mean that they and the world they inhabit isn't evil.

and you can say it's not evil, bad, or good... but the world so far disagrees with you. and i can see why. because you don't need to denote moral relativism to whether or not it's ok or not, good or evil or not, to eat someone else to survive. it's evil because it's immoral to the point of depravity and with the inherent human suffering that goes with it. and you should be ok with that because everyone has got a little bit of good and little bit of evil in them.

but anyways, tata. i hope you learned something today. all i heard from you was "but it's not anything!"

well, great job on your discussing "nothing" with me. :grin:

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OfflineRebelutionsssss
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Re: There is no such thing as true evil. [Re: akira_akuma]
    #21160098 - 01/21/15 10:18 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

If I killed your entire family and destroyed everything you loved would I be evil in your eyes


--------------------
:
To define is to confine.

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: There is no such thing as true evil. [Re: Rebelutionsssss]
    #21161082 - 01/22/15 04:29 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

yikes the thought experiments are getting nastier and closer to home.
the acts described are evil acts for sure,
if such a thing as karma exists, then the results of the acts will be very bad indeed.

that is the way of it, bad action makes a bad mess...
and cause and effect leads to the bad action.

the bad action does not come from evil, it comes from bad shit before
it is not an intelligent entity called evil.

I think that is the problem with the thread, it's the confusion of bad shit with the idea that there is a force of bad shitness
aka
evil.

there isn't, it's all cause and effect,
no entity or force.


--------------------
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OfflineWebster10
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Re: There is no such thing as true evil. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #21161092 - 01/22/15 04:35 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Yeah, it's subjective.  Those who cannot see this are blind to what and who they are imo.




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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: There is no such thing as true evil. [Re: Webster10]
    #21161278 - 01/22/15 06:55 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

yeah, way to have no argument. of course it's subjective, but that doesn't make what people perceive as evil "not evil", as it's not "neutral", even objectively speaking. and who cares if it's subjective anyways? makes for a lively philosophical debate about nothing, but it doesn't change the fact that we have evil in this world that sticks to and goes against the grain and perverts everything we as a society hold dear. it might be a sociological concept, and that might be an interesting debate. but saying that the concern for evil is "pointless" and that "it's all in our heads", is facile.

you really should have just posted a greamlin and been done with this, Webster.

:focv:

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: There is no such thing as true evil. [Re: Webster10]
    #21161594 - 01/22/15 08:55 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Webster10 said:
Quote:

akira_akuma said:
no, i know what you're saying. but i'm saying that we're humans and should only be concerned with humanities sake of what is good and evil.

killing people off the planet in an attempt to save something that can brush us off like fleas, but doesn't even care or think anything for us, is not rational. i opt for reason and rationality. not blithering over philosophical quandaries that hold no water.



The overpopulation of the Earth and over consumption of it's resources will cause nothing to be left for future generations. One could view an atrocity from the perspective that since it is depopulating the Earth, it could potentially actually be saving lives. Even if these lives haven't come into existence yet. This is just one perspective in which good can come of everything. There are several and according to any of them, there is no such thing as true evil. stop blithering over philosophical quandries that hold no water.




but this is a forum for blithering over lots of relatively unimportant issues. 

However I agree with your general thrust here. :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: There is no such thing as true evil. [Re: Icelander]
    #21161634 - 01/22/15 09:03 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

yeah, he really nails it home. good for him.

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OfflineWebster10
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Re: There is no such thing as true evil. [Re: Icelander]
    #21161648 - 01/22/15 09:06 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Thanks, the last sentence of that post wasn't my own words. I was repeating all the insults akira threw at me.

@akira, posting a graemlin wouldn't have explain my POV. I have already done it and don't feel the need to repeat myself. You are bringing nothing new to the discussion so I decided not to either. You for some reason have a hard on for continually repeating yourself in a slightly different format, I don't. I've said what's on my mind and you have either evaded or denied it.

In a nutshell: if something happens, and the result of it is good and bad(which is the case 100% of the time) it's not truly evil.

"ehtically this, ethically that"

:facepalm: no.


--------------------
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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: There is no such thing as true evil. [Re: Webster10]
    #21161658 - 01/22/15 09:09 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

that wasn't an insult. evaded it no. denied it yes. i deny your premise. i don't deny that there isn't a true evil. maybe you should open your fuckin' eyes, bro. :fonda:

all your posts here have been about is trying to prove that a "true evil" doesn't exist, and i already know that. but i'm saying that unless you can posit how and why "EVIL" itself doesn't exist, then your referencing "true evil" is irrelevant, to my claim, and that is that evil is still evil, and that it doesn't matter whether it's a "true evil" or not, and that our concept of evil in our society very well denotes meaning and truth. example: so i kill your mother.

what do you say to that, without including bad or evil into it, dude?

tell me, oh waise one. :rolleyes:

Quote:

In a nutshell: if something happens, and the result of it is good and bad(which is the case 100% of the time) it's not truly evil.




thank God, because the premise of your other arguments just flat out missed the boat entirely in addressing what i was saying.

yeah, great. now define "truly evil". are we talking like Satan here? or like amorphous blob from space with no conscious that sucks people dry?

what is true evil? oh that's right, you don't know.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: There is no such thing as true evil. [Re: Webster10] * 1
    #21161742 - 01/22/15 09:33 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

No one knows what is good or evil in reality.  A flood that wiped out much of the current life in the delta will make a much healthier landscape and flora and fauna for the future. We really don't know what the ultimate result of any action will be.  Much that seems benign or "good" turns out to be dissatisfying in the end with unexpected consequences.  Some supposed "evil" in the long run brings a good result. Happens all the time.:shrug:

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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: There is no such thing as true evil. [Re: Icelander]
    #21161750 - 01/22/15 09:36 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

but not evil that humans do to each other, which doesn't result in anything but a slightly lesser amount of humans, but it also ends up hurting everyone around said event of "purposed evil" and it is only purposed because no shit, hey, evil is a human concept.

is there another sort of evil? if not, what do we call it then, if not evil? care to be specific or do we just say "fuck it, philosophy says 'do away with concepts'"

maybe we should do away with the concept of pointless philosophizing. :shrug: ya know, since we're just ignoring concepts just because we invented them.

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OfflineWebster10
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Re: There is no such thing as true evil. [Re: akira_akuma]
    #21161852 - 01/22/15 09:58 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

all your posts here have been about is trying to prove that a "true evil" doesn't exist, and i already know that. but i'm saying that unless you can posit how and why "EVIL" itself doesn't exist, then your referencing "true evil" is irrelevant, to my claim, and that is that evil is still evil, and that it doesn't matter whether it's a "true evil" or not, and that our concept of evil in our society very well denotes meaning and truth. example: so i kill your mother.



You didn't seem to know it yesterday. That is what the thread is about, whether or not true evil exists, read the title. You seem to be confusing evil with bad. An objective definition of evil doesn't exist, therefore evil is open to interpretation to anyone. Evil isn't evil in that sense. It is a subjective topic and this has already been explained too many times. Why are you taking the role of spokesman for "our society?" within any society, one will have a differing idea of what evil is. You cannot seriously be so narcissistic to think that your idea of evil can objectively be applied to any situation. Killing my mother would be bad in the sense it would cause me emotional turmoil. It would be good for a number of other reasons. It was not a truly evil act.


Quote:

what do you say to that, without including bad or evil into it, dude?

tell me, oh waise one. :rolleyes:



What is my opinion when debating evil without including bad or evil into my opinion? Get out of here.

Quote:

yeah, great. now define "truly evil". are we talking like Satan here? or like amorphous blob from space with no conscious that sucks people dry?

what is true evil? oh that's right, you don't know.



I defined what I believe the criteria for true evil is yesterday. See icelanders response. He raised a good point that even if everyone agreed something was evil, we are only judging it according to our current knowledge. who knows, we may learn something in the future that makes all of this irrelevant. You certainly don't know, but neither does anyone else.


--------------------
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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: There is no such thing as true evil. [Re: akira_akuma]
    #21161855 - 01/22/15 09:59 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Humans just do what comes natural.  If it's "evil" then nature itself is the cause.  But nature doesn't seem to be concerned with the concept because it's not useful it seems.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: There is no such thing as true evil. [Re: Icelander]
    #21161872 - 01/22/15 10:01 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

and if humans just did what was natural all the time?























there are reasons for human concepts.

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OfflineWebster10
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Re: There is no such thing as true evil. [Re: akira_akuma]
    #21161881 - 01/22/15 10:03 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

that wasn't an insult. evaded it no. denied it yes. i deny your premise. i don't deny that there isn't a true evil. maybe you should open your fuckin' eyes, bro. :fonda:



I opened my fucking eyes to this:
Quote:

they've done all sorts of truly evil things and cannot be accounted for other than as "true evil".



:fonda:

Changing your position in the middle of a debate is a major hindrance to reaching a resolution.

It's obvious you just want to be right :shrug: so badly that you'd change your position so you're not wrong. well you were wrong, and you realized it so now you're trying to argue something else.


--------------------
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OfflineWebster10
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Re: There is no such thing as true evil. [Re: akira_akuma]
    #21161901 - 01/22/15 10:09 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
and if humans just did what was natural all the time?























there are reasons for human concepts.



Human concepts are natural


--------------------
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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: There is no such thing as true evil. [Re: Webster10]
    #21161964 - 01/22/15 10:23 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

ok, so then you're arguing for the sake of arguing, got it.

if human concepts are natural, then so is evil, so then therefore there IS evil. you just blew away your argument in agreement with Icelander. congrats.

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