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InvisibleViolet
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Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 4,205
Re: Lost grain nutrition in preparation - Pinning down BE & discovering lost potential [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #21126875 - 01/15/15 08:53 PM (9 years, 2 months ago)

I also was surprised there wasn't more nutrition lost to the water.
As I said above I wouldn't be surprised if I lose more in my typical preparations than in this miniature microwave prep.
Might have to do the normal prep soon too, when I find another opportunity, to see if there's a difference.  Might be within a week, might be after a month.  I'm about to get busy for a spell.


Truly this is a SUPER easy experiment!

A measured amount of grains, microwaved to measure their true dry matter content (some burst like popcorn :lol:)...

Then a measured amount of grain that accounts for the water content (I chose 100 grams so the numbers immediately translate to percentages) prepared and separated from the water, keeping all of both!
Air-drying the grains well before evaporating the rest of the moisture in the microwave, then weighing the total.

As long as you're accounting for the original moisture content of the grains, you don't have to bother evaporating all of the grainwater to measure the grainmatter flakes, which takes MUCH longer or steaming it away on a hot plate or something.

Seriously it was EASY.

I would LOVE other people to report in with their results!  Rye, oats, birdseed (millet and/or milo separately also), grass seed, brown rice...

We can figure out if the loss is consistent for All grains, or just within the same kinds of grains, or even just random depending on preparation differences...


--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!

PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek!  For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
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Offlineblackout
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Re: Lost grain nutrition in preparation - Pinning down BE & discovering lost potential [Re: Violet]
    #21130252 - 01/16/15 05:03 PM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Violet said:I'm sure it depends on the grains and their storage, as certainly this number can and will fluctuate, but at the moment it seems as if my rice is 3.5-4% moisture.



This sounds very low to me. I have never had rice that low in moisture. Nearly all grains I tested were 10-15%. "the mushroom cultivator" listed the long grain BR as 15% moisture, it also had short grain BR as 25% which I thought was very high.


Quote:

Violet said:
So for whatever reason I lost almost 3 fewer grams of rice matter to the water this time than the first, accounting for the probable water content in the grains used for the first.


Did you boil off the first lot of water? or just estimating this was what was in it. Since I imagine they were closer than you think and that your original moisture content test did not dry it out enough.

Be careful drying in the microwave, I have seen stuff go on fire in microwaves. I dried out some grain a few weeks ago which began smoking. A regular oven is safer.

As for BE, I never liked the use of wet weights in it. That's what edible producers will sell in but I would be more interested in comparing dry weights if you are drying to compare grow methods which could result in different moisture contents of the shrooms. I have read some studies which listed both.

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Invisibleblackdust
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Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 8,327
Re: Lost grain nutrition in preparation - Pinning down BE & discovering lost potential [Re: blackout]
    #21130395 - 01/16/15 05:38 PM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

blackout said:


As for BE, I never liked the use of wet weights in it. That's what edible producers will sell in but I would be more interested in comparing dry weights if you are drying to compare grow methods which could result in different moisture contents of the shrooms. I have read some studies which listed both.





I have always thought this.

+1

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Offlineinvitro

Registered: 05/03/13
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Re: Lost grain nutrition in preparation - Pinning down BE & discovering lost potential [Re: Violet]
    #21130567 - 01/16/15 06:21 PM (9 years, 2 months ago)

:sherlock::mushdance:

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Invisibleblackdust
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Re: Lost grain nutrition in preparation - Pinning down BE & discovering lost potential [Re: invitro]
    #21132680 - 01/17/15 08:33 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Violet, I think these POM's will work. I'm so excited! :thanx:


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InvisibleViolet
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Re: Lost grain nutrition in preparation - Pinning down BE & discovering lost potential [Re: invitro]
    #21135852 - 01/17/15 09:40 PM (9 years, 2 months ago)

So I did both tests again.


Firstly I dried out another set of grains to see how correct my initial moisture content test was.

Dried the SHIT out of them this time, to where many popped and burned some, and was able to get a full 8% moisture loss.
It's possible that the grains are collecting a bit more humidity over time in my room, and equally possible that there was just a tad more moisture to boil away anyway.

Regardless, this time I was significantly more thorough than I have been before, so it's reasonable that my other tests could have had an even greater percentage of nutrition loss than measured if I was tried to get every last molecule out of the boiled rice to the degree that I did this unprepared rice.
I still consider all results still standing as they were, given the understanding that there's always a tad of moisture somewhere no matter how hard we try to get rid of every last molecule.
These results are still plenty enough to educate ourselves and come to a better-than-general understanding about the nature of this thread.



Mainly, I did the primary test again, but this time boiling stovetop-style as I normally do, instead of the microwave which I used for the prior posts.

104 grams of rice (given that the last drying test had shown 4% moisture) in like 600-700mL of water since much will be lost as steam.

Got it up to a nice steady boil, but not hard boiling...

After the steady simmer continued for about 20min, a good bit of water had steamed away and the rice fluffed up nicely.

I separated the rice and the water.  The rice was allowed to air dry under a fan.  The grainwater I am using to test agar sterilization in the microwave.


Once the new grains had air dried a lot, I forcibly dried the shit out of them as well.
The result:
... Crap.  I accidentally deleted the LAST photo I took, likewise accidentally keeping one I took before I finished drying the last bit out of the grain that I could.
Well, maybe you'll take my word on this one.  I'll post the photo I accidentally kept and uploaded...

... but the final total I got it down to was 87.8g, not the 89 shown above.


So this time I had a 12g 12% loss to the prep water, which due to steaming a lot of moisture away, is a very thick and starchy 100mL that's quite indicative of being loaded with ricematter.

If, theoretically, we should have used 108g grain instead of 104 to account for 8% moisture instead of 4%, then instead of 12g 12% matter lost to the water it's 8g 8%.
Similarly, with the LAST test I did that lost ~7g 7% it would actually be 3g 3%.

So regardless of the initial water content of the 'dry' grains, I lost essentially double as much nutrition to the water in the stovetop prep compared to the microwaved prep.  (The stovetop prep is preferable and what I always use.)  Might have been a tad more had I used as much water as I should have.


--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!

PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek!  For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
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InvisibleViolet
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Re: Lost grain nutrition in preparation - Pinning down BE & discovering lost potential [Re: Violet]
    #21136080 - 01/17/15 10:41 PM (9 years, 2 months ago)

I definitely believe that I can expect to lose an average of 8-12% of nutrition to the prep water in real batch preparations on the stove top.

That's significant... 454g (1lb) of grains losing 10% is like 45+g of grainmatter.

In a 250%BE grow of cased & watered brown rice the 454g brown rice, ~409 after prep with 10% loss, would yield 102 dry grams.
That 10% loss, ~45g grainmatter, also at 250%BE could produce another 11g, a 10% increase of yield, which is a SIGNIFICANT margin.

Some kind of business, like manufacturing for instance, would see a 10% margin as the ENTIRETY of their profit margin, and would chastise the cause of such a large loss.
There's no reason the home cultivator wouldn't be smart to take this attitude towards materials bought with his or her own funds.


Poms, using nothing but reusable materials and a SMALL amount of agar-agar powder (.75g [maybe less] per 150mL container), can get us that 10% extra yield from our grains.

The yields from Poms 1 containers with grain prep water might not be huge, but they're easy no-maintenance grows with reusable materials.



A made-from-scratch pom container can have ~20g of brown rice flour for a 125-150mL Pom container which takes just .5g agar-agar powder at the most.

Not sure if the thick settled grainwater has that content, but presuming that it has only a bit short of that for this hypothetical, it would take just 3 pom containers (at 15g ricematter per container) to grow the ~45g lost from 1lb of rice when prepared.
If we manage 250%BE from each of those pom containers, that's 3.75g per container, 11.25g of dry mushrooms.  Not too bad, considering the only thing it took to grow that which isn't reusable is like 1g of agar-agar powder.  If you get a good deal on agar-agar, or trade for it, it's a no-brainer IMO. 
Otherwise, you just have to choose what's important to you, as many of the deals I've seen for agar-agar on Amazon etc. come out to about 10¢ for 1g and 45g of rice for me is about 7¢. 


--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!

PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek!  For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
Violet's Teks and Posts

Edited by Violet (01/18/15 12:49 AM)

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Offlineblackout
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Re: Lost grain nutrition in preparation - Pinning down BE & discovering lost potential [Re: Violet]
    #21138026 - 01/18/15 12:20 PM (9 years, 2 months ago)

If you are worried about wasting grains then do not boil in excess water, just make your rice using the absorption method. A common recipe is 1.5 parts water by volume to 1 part rice by volume.

I use brown easy cook rice as it has already gotten some heat treatment and does not go very sticky if you are using the absorption method and not bothering to rinse.

Cooking by the absorption method allows you to easily introduce additional nutrients in a controlled manner. e.g. I have added malt extract to rice before. You can look at the rices naturally occurring sugar levels and get it to where you want it to be.

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