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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Are you an American? What aspects of your country are you unhappy with? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21125618 - 01/15/15 04:00 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

>I already acknowledged that a 10% increase in the minimum wage will increase prices by 0.4%, and will result in a slight temporary increase in unemployment for young workers

What you "acknowledged" was false. You quote the usual biased crap from universities and other liberal hangouts and ignore the real world. The min wage increase ripples through the economy causing those getting just above the min to demand more and those just above them, and so on up the line. Many people calculate their wage as a multiple of the min wage.


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“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Are you an American? What aspects of your country are you unhappy with? [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21126769 - 01/15/15 08:25 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I already acknowledged that a 10% increase in the minimum wage will increase prices by 0.4%, and will result in a slight temporary increase in unemployment for young workers



What you "acknowledged" was false. You quote the usual biased crap from universities and other liberal hangouts and ignore the real world.



Holy fuck your reading comprehension is atrocious!  I quoted the Cato Institute, a libertarian group who did a comprehensive review of more than 20 minimum wage studies looking at price effects from the real world.

If you have an authoritative study of the results of minimum wage increases, PLEASE, PRETTY PLEASE post it.  I really don't care about your fantasies regarding minimum wage effects.  I want to see real world studies.  PLEASE post whatever you're relying on if you don't trust the libertarian results.

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InvisibleShroom Detective
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Re: Are you an American? What aspects of your country are you unhappy with? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21127189 - 01/15/15 10:11 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

Second, California's poverty rate is lower than the poverty rate...




Quote:

Updated: 01/23/2014 6:58 pm EST...California has the highest rate of impoverished people in the nation, according to figures released Wednesday by the U.S. government...





--------------------
"I, Falcon91Wolvrn03, am a BIG FAT LIAR; so much so, that my pants are on fire."

Edited by Shroom Detective (01/15/15 10:15 PM)

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Offlinejsncrs
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Re: Are you an American? What aspects of your country are you unhappy with? [Re: ChiefGreenLeaf]
    #21127208 - 01/15/15 10:16 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

We incarcerate more people than anywhere else in the world.




Didn't some dude recently get caught funneling children straight out of an orphanage into his prisons to keep his quota up?

I don't live in the US, but private prisons have got to be one of the most fucked up things that exist today in my opinion.

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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Are you an American? What aspects of your country are you unhappy with? [Re: jsncrs]
    #21128218 - 01/16/15 07:22 AM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

jsncrs said:
Quote:

We incarcerate more people than anywhere else in the world.




Didn't some dude recently get caught funneling children straight out of an orphanage into his prisons to keep his quota up?

I don't live in the US, but private prisons have got to be one of the most fucked up things that exist today in my opinion.




It's our freedom that makes this okay. :obama:


--------------------

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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Are you an American? What aspects of your country are you unhappy with? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21128377 - 01/16/15 09:08 AM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Fal, you live in a left wing world and only read what supports your view. Here is something from the "real" world which you try to avoid a lot. It shows a loss of employment and actually increases poverty.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2013/04/17/the-record-is-clear-minimum-wage-hikes-destroy-jobs/

The case in favor of a higher minimum wage is built on a bewildering number of misleading statistics and straight-up falsehoods, some of which were recently rehashed on the pages of the Washington Post by former Obama administration economist Betsey Stevenson

In a comprehensive, 182-page summary of the research on this subject from the last two decades, economists David Neumark (UC-Irvine) and William Wascher (Federal Reserve Board) determined that 85 percent of the best research points to a loss of jobs following a minimum wage increase.

More recently, the paper that the President relied on to make his case for a higher minimum was debunked in a study published by the National Bureau of Economic Research.

a study published in the Journal of Human Resources found that a higher minimum wage can actually increase the proportion of families living at or near the poverty line, as the resulting reduction in work hours (or a loss of employment altogether) leads to less take-home pay rather than more.


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“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Are you an American? What aspects of your country are you unhappy with? [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21128533 - 01/16/15 10:03 AM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Fal, you live in a left wing world and only read what supports your view. Here is something from the "real" world which you try to avoid a lot. It shows a loss of employment and actually increases poverty.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2013/04/17/the-record-is-clear-minimum-wage-hikes-destroy-jobs/



Holy fuck your reading comprehension is atrocious!  I already agreed that minimum wage increases raise prices and costs jobs.  How many times do I have to tell you this until you hear me???

The Forbes article did NOT provide ANY conflicting information WHATSOEVER to the data I already provided.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Are you an American? What aspects of your country are you unhappy with? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21128570 - 01/16/15 10:24 AM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Fal, is that your way of saying "you're right"? Kind of like the way zappa does it. OK, we agree raising the min raises prices, costs jobs and increases poverty.

And speaking of that progressive state commiefornia, here is a little gem from sd

"Updated: 01/23/2014 6:58 pm EST...California has the highest rate of impoverished people in the nation, according to figures released Wednesday by the U.S. government..."


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Are you an American? What aspects of your country are you unhappy with? [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21128745 - 01/16/15 11:13 AM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
OK, we agree raising the min raises prices, costs jobs and increases poverty.



Yes, we do agree that raising the minimum wage raises prices and costs jobs, but all the evidence shows that these impacts are extremely minimal, and you haven't presented evidence showing otherwise.

I DON'T agree it increases poverty, nor do economists (hint - click the link and read it).

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
And speaking of that progressive state commiefornia, here is a little gem from sd

"Updated: 01/23/2014 6:58 pm EST...California has the highest rate of impoverished people in the nation, according to figures released Wednesday by the U.S. government..."



That article says the poor in California earn more than the poor in other states, but there is more poverty if you consider the higher housing costs in California.  I've already agreed California housing costs are higher because more people want to live there and that this is why the poor are leaving, and I also pointed out that this "is why we're raising our minimum wage to $10/hr, and even $15/hr in San Francisco."


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Are you an American? What aspects of your country are you unhappy with? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21128817 - 01/16/15 11:32 AM (9 years, 4 months ago)

So if it never worked in the past the solution is to do it again? Lets just pass a law that rich people have to give half their money to the poor. That will fix things, don't you think?


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Are you an American? What aspects of your country are you unhappy with? [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21128826 - 01/16/15 11:35 AM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
So if it never worked in the past the solution is to do it again?



If what never worked in the past?  The studies all show that the loss in jobs and the increase in prices are so small, that it's well worth increasing minimum wage.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Are you an American? What aspects of your country are you unhappy with? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21128847 - 01/16/15 11:41 AM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Lol @ fal. "minimal" meaning the rotten state of the economy we have now? "well worth it" meaning we should be like commiefornia where people are fleeing in droves? I guess that ultra expensive railroad will fix everything?


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Are you an American? What aspects of your country are you unhappy with? [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21128875 - 01/16/15 11:50 AM (9 years, 4 months ago)

You can't follow a discussion, can you?  You're like SD: when proven wrong, try moving to another topic.  The current state of the economy and the high speed rail have NOTHING to do with minimum wage.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Are you an American? What aspects of your country are you unhappy with? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21128885 - 01/16/15 11:54 AM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Lol again, fal, you are one of the major subject changers and you accuse others of it.

>The current state of the economy and the high speed rail have NOTHING to do with minimum wage.

Oh really? I think the rail boondoggle will have a ton to do with cali's economy, don't you think so too? The min has nothing to do with the economy? Where, on mars?


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Are you an American? What aspects of your country are you unhappy with? [Re: Stonehenge] * 1
    #21128923 - 01/16/15 12:07 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Lol @ fal. "minimal" meaning the rotten state of the economy we have now? "well worth it" meaning we should be like commiefornia where people are fleeing in droves? I guess that ultra expensive railroad will fix everything?




So wait, he provides an answer so you circle back around to what the argument was pages ago?

Oh wait, I forgot you have me on ignore for consistently addressing your posts.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Are you an American? What aspects of your country are you unhappy with? [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21128931 - 01/16/15 12:08 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Lol again, fal, you are one of the major subject changers and you accuse others of it.



If you want to accuse me of changing topics, then PROVE IT.  I pointed out exactly how you were trying to change the topic.

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
The current state of the economy and the high speed rail have NOTHING to do with minimum wage.




Oh really? I think the rail boondoggle will have a ton to do with cali's economy, don't you think so too?



Of course it will, but what does that have to do with minimum wage?

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
The min has nothing to do with the economy? Where, on mars?



I didn't say minimum wage has nothing to do with the economy - quit making things up.  You said: "'minimal' meaning the rotten state of the economy we have now?"

My response was that minimum wage has nothing to do with the current state of the economy, as we haven't changed minimum wage lately.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Are you an American? What aspects of your country are you unhappy with? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21129159 - 01/16/15 12:57 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Lol again, fal, you are one of the major subject changers and you accuse others of it.



If you want to accuse me of changing topics, then PROVE IT.  I pointed out exactly how you were trying to change the topic.




Quote:

Stonehenge said:
The min has nothing to do with the economy? Where, on mars?



I didn't say minimum wage has nothing to do with the economy - quit making things up.  You said: "'minimal' meaning the rotten state of the economy we have now?"

My response was that minimum wage has nothing to do with the current state of the economy, as we haven't changed minimum wage lately.




Oh? then what about this in your previous post?

"The current state of the economy and the high speed rail have NOTHING to do with minimum wage."

Did you forget you said that? What a tangled web we weave...


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Are you an American? What aspects of your country are you unhappy with? [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21129335 - 01/16/15 01:41 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
what about this in your previous post?

"The current state of the economy and the high speed rail have NOTHING to do with minimum wage."

Did you forget you said that?



I'm exactly right.  The current state of the economy has nothing to do with minimum wage, because we haven't changed the minimum wage in the last 5 years.

Should we implement a minimum wage change, then we know what will happen to the economy - we'll see very small price increases, and a very small temporary unemployment increase, as I've already explained.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Are you an American? What aspects of your country are you unhappy with? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21129641 - 01/16/15 03:00 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

>I'm exactly right.  The current state of the economy has nothing to do with minimum wage, because we haven't changed the minimum wage in the last 5 years.

The economy has been bad for 5 years and if its getting better lately, maybe that's because the min has not been jacked up in a while.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Are you an American? What aspects of your country are you unhappy with? [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21130038 - 01/16/15 04:24 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

And maybe it's getting better in spite of the fact that the minimum wage hasn't increased.  This discussion shouldn't be about "maybe".  It should be about real studies on the impact of prior minimum wage increases.  Those studies all show:

1.  Prices go up a very small amount (nowhere close to the wage increase)
2.  Unemployment temporarily rises a very small amount for young people
3.  Poverty levels go down.

If you have studies that show something different, then post them.  All the ones you've posted so far confirm what I've already said.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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