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OfflineOyster_Bob
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Help me clarify my understanding of Master Spawn & Oysters?
    #21112833 - 01/13/15 10:23 AM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Greetings All,

I am trying to understand the whole process/concept of Master Spawn.  From what I understand the Master Spawn is the spawn which all your crops come from.  If the Master Spawn is Generation 1 - the crop should be Generation 2?  One should avoid using Generation 2 to spawn more crops, instead use Generation 1 when possible?

For Master Spawn in the case of Oysters - It would be best if it was Grain & stored in the fridge?  Thoughts on Sawdust spawn?

From there it would one spoonful to a quart or so of sawdust wait for it to spawn then mix it into the 5 gallon bucket of straw?

If I intend on doing many crops through the year (one 5 gal bucket a week) - would it be advisable when receiving the grain spawn from the lab, to then immediately break it up into many smaller containers with freshly sterilized grain, colonize then refrigerate?

I read somewhere on the forum - sawdust to sawdust isn't all that great - so it would be best to stick to grain from the start?  I am concerned about starting with grain, because of the potential ease of contamination, and this is really my first go, I would want to make it as simple as possible :-)

It looks like spawn can only be kept for a year at most? - So at the very least - would need to purchase fresh spawn every year?  I just received Tradd Cotter's book and only had a few moments to thumb through it - he mentions a method where he stores grains in sterilized water and retrieves a few at a time when making new spawn - I think it was mentioned this was good for long term/1 year storage - any thoughts on this?

Thanks,

Bob

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Offlineknomadic_niki
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Re: Help me clarify my understanding of Master Spawn & Oysters? [Re: Oyster_Bob]
    #21114329 - 01/13/15 01:36 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

If you're buying grain spawn, I would expand it at least twice. Master Jar to Gen 2 to bulk substrate. You could go three or even four times. As long as you're sure your sterile technique is good. I would recommend only opening the jar once and using the whole thing because each time you open it risks contamination. I make my own spawn from my own cultures, so I only expand once from agar to master to bulk substrate. because I don't have the space to store all the expansions and because I'm working on a fairly small scale.

Its best not to store master grain jars past their prime. You should use it right away. They consolidate and loose vigor.

Minimum recommended inoculation rate is usually 1:10 but check with your spawn supplier. That's about 1/3 cup master grain spawn to your next quart of grain.

I don't use sawdust spawn. I don't like working with it as much as grain because I use jars and it consolidates too much to get it out easily. Stamet's book suggests going from grain master to grain spawn to supplemented sawdust spawn to bulk substrate.

Spawn can not be kept for a year. It will fruit in the jar and/or die. You can refrigerate it but it will diminish in quality and vigor. When Tradd mentions keeping grain in sterilized water, he is talking about doing it in a test tube as an alternative to culture slants. This is long term storage of a culture, not master spawn. You will need to place the grain on an agar dish to grow it out and then transfer it to a grain jar to make a new master grain spawn yourself. I am using this technique for long term culture storage but I have not tried recovering the culture from storage yet.

I hope that helps


--------------------
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Edited by knomadic_niki (01/13/15 01:44 PM)

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Invisiblelipa

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Re: Help me clarify my understanding of Master Spawn & Oysters? [Re: Oyster_Bob]
    #21114348 - 01/13/15 01:39 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Grain Masters
We culture mycelium in petri plates on agar.

Then when the mycelium is healthy and clean we transfer our mycelium to sterile Grain. These first jars of grain are called Grain Masters.

Knowing that our Grain Masters are clean we use the masters to inoculate more grain G2, G3, G4 and so on. With oysters taking this to G10 is totally possible.

The name Grain masters is misleading. It is basically the first clean jar you start with to expand more grain but the second generation is where you will know for sure that your spawn is nice and clean because this is when contaminates usually present themselves if present. So therefore the second generation could be used as a master as well and would be ideal

If you buy a Master from a company they probably are sending you a G2. It doesn't matter what generation of spawn you use to spawn to a bulk substrate as long as it is healthy.

Sawdust
Sawdust is not a spawning medium except for outdoor beds. Supplemented sawdust however can be used to spawn bulk substrates but is not ideal. Grain spawn would be best in the case for your oysters because the grain adds to the BE to a certain extent.

Grain storage
Master can be stored for a few weeks in the fridge but ideally should be used right away for expansion. Grain spawn meant for inoculation onto bulk substrates should be use within one week or stored a maximum of 4 weeks in the fridge. Again it is best to use it right away for the best results.

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Invisiblesolarity
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Re: Help me clarify my understanding of Master Spawn & Oysters? [Re: lipa]
    #21114805 - 01/13/15 02:35 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

I was interested to hear (from Mycelia - one of the largest spawn producers in Europe) that when you spawn a new generation it re-sets the time clock, so a 6 month old G2 will produce perfectly good G3. -That is as long as your sterile technique and grain is good because it will take longer to colonise due to the loss of vitality of the G2, opening up more chances of contamination.


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Edited by solarity (01/13/15 02:36 PM)

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Offlineknomadic_niki
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Re: Help me clarify my understanding of Master Spawn & Oysters? [Re: solarity]
    #21115338 - 01/13/15 03:34 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

that IS interesting, solarity. I know I've not had luck spawning old grain jars to bulk substrate but i've never tried another g2g transfer. it ends up messy in the lab because you have to hack the consolidated mycelium apart


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Invisiblelipa

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Re: Help me clarify my understanding of Master Spawn & Oysters? [Re: solarity]
    #21115353 - 01/13/15 03:37 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Who want's to try and break up a 6 month old cake of spawn to make G3's out of? Not me...... Oysters continue to grow under refrigeration quite well resulting in a dense mass of mycelium that doesn't break up.

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OfflineOyster_Bob
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Re: Help me clarify my understanding of Master Spawn & Oysters? [Re: lipa]
    #21115487 - 01/13/15 04:04 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Thank you everyone!

So it looks like storing spawn for more than a few weeks/months is not the thing to do.  If I wanted to inoculate a bucket of straw a week, what could I do without a proper lab or flow hood for that matter?  Reusing spent spawn is generally a bad idea?

Thanks again!,

Bob

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Offlineknomadic_niki
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Re: Help me clarify my understanding of Master Spawn & Oysters? [Re: Oyster_Bob]
    #21115740 - 01/13/15 05:15 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

you cannot expand grain spawn without a still air box, glove box, or more preferably a flow hood. you can only spawn it to pasteurized bulk substrate. if you're asking if you can reuse the substrate after it fruits to inoculate more substrate, no, you can't do that. it will contaminate

the only way is to buy spawn, or learn to expand spawn to grain. you will need to pressure sterilize grain in jars with some kind of air exchange filter, and do transfers in sterile air.


--------------------
My trade list

In search of sporeless oyster cultures

Edited by knomadic_niki (01/13/15 05:16 PM)

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Offlineknomadic_niki
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Re: Help me clarify my understanding of Master Spawn & Oysters? [Re: knomadic_niki]
    #21115757 - 01/13/15 05:18 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

one thing you could try is cloning mushrooms in cardboard "burritos" like tradd cotter explains in his videos on his websites, and then you can spawn the cardboard to pasteurized straw. you will end up with some contamination but it will work


--------------------
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Offlinedrake89
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Re: Help me clarify my understanding of Master Spawn & Oysters? [Re: knomadic_niki]
    #21116107 - 01/13/15 06:45 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

knomadic_niki said:
you cannot expand grain spawn without a still air box, glove box, or more preferably a flow hood. you can only spawn it to pasteurized bulk substrate. if you're asking if you can reuse the substrate after it fruits to inoculate more substrate, no, you can't do that. it will contaminate

the only way is to buy spawn, or learn to expand spawn to grain. you will need to pressure sterilize grain in jars with some kind of air exchange filter, and do transfers in sterile air.




you could try to expand the grain onto straw.  then say you make 4 straw bags, use one the next week to make another batch.  continue this for a couple of months and then buy more spawn.  might not get the nutrients from the grain but he'd be saving money on spawn.


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Offlineknomadic_niki
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Re: Help me clarify my understanding of Master Spawn & Oysters? [Re: drake89]
    #21116690 - 01/13/15 08:25 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

ya, if he doesn't fruit the straw, you're right, it might work. I have always assumed the high rate of spawn i put in my straw bags contributed to better fruit yields. when i used to do low tech, like the cardboard to straw i mentioned, it had much poorer yields than when i started making my own grain spawn and using 1:5-:1-7 spawn ratios


--------------------
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In search of sporeless oyster cultures

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OfflineOyster_Bob
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Re: Help me clarify my understanding of Master Spawn & Oysters? [Re: knomadic_niki]
    #21119658 - 01/14/15 09:33 AM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Thanks for the ideas!

So Hypothetically the following can work?:

Week one
Cultivate (2) 5 gallon buckets (one with holes, one with out) with 5lb block of sawdust spawn (Oyster)

Week two
Cultivate (2) 5 gallon buckets (one with holes, one with out) with 5lb block of sawdust spawn (Oyster)

Week three
Take Week one bucket the one without side holes  (should be fully colonized & not yet fruited) -  break it up and cultivate 2 buckets (one with holes, one without)

Week 4
Harvest Bucket from week one (first flush)
Take Week two bucket the one without side holes (should be fully colonized & not yet fruited) -  break it up and cultivate 2 buckets (one with holes, one without)

Week 5
Harvest Bucket from week two (first flush)
Take Week three bucket the one without side holes (should be fully colonized & not yet fruited) -  break it up and cultivate 2 buckets (one with holes, one without)

Week 6
Harvest Bucket from week three (first flush)
Harvest Bucket from week one (second flush)
Take Week four bucket the one without side holes (should be fully colonized & not yet fruited) -  break it up and cultivate 2 buckets (one with holes, one without)

Week 7
Harvest Bucket from week four (first flush)
Harvest Bucket from week two (second flush)
Take Week five bucket the one without side holes (should be fully colonized & not yet fruited) -  break it up and cultivate 2 buckets (one with holes, one without)

Week 8
Harvest Bucket from week five (first flush)
Harvest Bucket from week three (second flush)
Harvest Bucket from week one (third flush)
Dump Bucket from week one into compost heap after third flush harvest
Take Week six bucket the one without side holes (should be fully colonized & not yet fruited) -  break it up and cultivate 2 buckets (one with holes, one without)

Week 9
Harvest Bucket from week six (first flush)
Harvest Bucket from week four (second flush)
Harvest Bucket from week two (third flush)
Dump Bucket from week two into compost heap after third flush harvest
Take Week six bucket the one without side holes (should be fully colonized & not yet fruited) -  break it up and cultivate 2 buckets (one with holes, one without)

Future weeks continue the process...

any idea how long this could go on before spawn vitality is lost?


I plan on doing this endeavor outside in a shaded area of my screened patio (to hopefully keep pests at bay)
- temps between 45-80 with 70-85% humidity in the winter (Blue Oysters?)
- temps between 80-98 with 90-100% humidity in the summer (Pink, Gold & Phoenix Oysters?)
- To disinfect the buckets - could I just toss them into the chlorinated pool (after rinsing) for a few days & skip the scrubbing efforts?
- Instead of shredded hay - was thinking of using Streufex Pellets - http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/20854592#20854592


Thoughts?

Thanks again!,

Bob

Edited by Oyster_Bob (01/14/15 09:50 AM)

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OfflineOyster_Bob
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Re: Help me clarify my understanding of Master Spawn & Oysters? [Re: Oyster_Bob]
    #21119984 - 01/14/15 11:13 AM (9 years, 4 months ago)

From Tradd Cotter's plan, it looks like I would need to buy spawn every 13 weeks - which would equate to about 6 cycles if following the plan above (one bag of sawdust spawn for even weeks, one bags of spawn for odd weeks).  He mentions a longer rest time between flushes (2 weeks vs 1 week) and more sawdust spawn to begin with (3 bags vs 2 bags) - so may be closer to 5 cycles...In the section of the book he is discussing the 4x4 indoor system (that I would be using outdoors) he doesn't go into detail on how to make the 3 bags of spawn last 13 weeks - but would be safe to assume it would be something similar to what is detailed in the last post? - unless he just got a new bag of spawn every 3-4 weeks and spread it across a bucket a week for that time?  Shipping would kinda ruin it for me....

Reference to Tradd Cotter's 4x4 indoor setup -- http://www.chelseagreen.com/content/indoor-oyster-mushrooms-small-spaces/


Thanks,

Bob

Edited by Oyster_Bob (01/14/15 12:36 PM)

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Offlineknomadic_niki
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Re: Help me clarify my understanding of Master Spawn & Oysters? [Re: Oyster_Bob]
    #21120228 - 01/14/15 12:13 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

is there a spawn producer closer to you? also, grain spawn would be my preference, although I know tradd doesn't offer it. grain spawn would have the benefit of adding nutrient supplement to the straw substrate.


--------------------
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OfflineOyster_Bob
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Re: Help me clarify my understanding of Master Spawn & Oysters? [Re: knomadic_niki]
    #21120329 - 01/14/15 12:37 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Unfortunately I could not find any Spawn Producers in my area - South Florida (preferably in/around Palm Beach county)

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Invisibleblindingleaf
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Re: Help me clarify my understanding of Master Spawn & Oysters? [Re: solarity]
    #21124620 - 01/15/15 11:13 AM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

solarity said:
I was interested to hear (from Mycelia - one of the largest spawn producers in Europe) that when you spawn a new generation it re-sets the time clock, so a 6 month old G2 will produce perfectly good G3. -That is as long as your sterile technique and grain is good because it will take longer to colonise due to the loss of vitality of the G2, opening up more chances of contamination.




so do they mean its better to keep ur G2 in fridge till u need to expand, than to do all ur expansion to G3 at once, then store the G3??

because i wonder about this a lot.  what is a better practice:
-making g1, then storing it till needed
-making g1, expanding to G2 right when G1 is ready, then storing G2, G3, etc. so that the ONLY thing put into cold storage is the generation before spawning to bulk

i always assumed (but not necessarily practiced) u should always expand while its at its peak viability, then only store G3, but i guess they are saying, it doesn't matter?

i would love some guidance on that, because sometimes i store G1 a lot because i over make masters, and instead of making more when i need to expand (so its brand new), i just use the stored G1, but i kinda get worried thats maybe not the best idea?
i can't say i really see a difference in performance, but i haven't been at this long at all.


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Invisiblesolarity
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Re: Help me clarify my understanding of Master Spawn & Oysters? [Re: blindingleaf]
    #21125077 - 01/15/15 01:34 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Yes. Store the generation before the one going to bulk sub.

I tend to store G2's as 5kg of G2 will make 100kg of G3 spawn that will make 2T-4T of sub ... if you use it fresh!


--------------------
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Offlineknomadic_niki
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Re: Help me clarify my understanding of Master Spawn & Oysters? [Re: solarity]
    #21125144 - 01/15/15 01:50 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

I do not store the generation being spawned to fruiting substrate. i have had marked increases in colonization times when I use old spawn.


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