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InvisibleWhite Beard

Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 6,325
Re: Pills make you feel good. [Re: Icelander]
    #21093781 - 01/09/15 06:37 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

White Beard said:
:thumbup:





I don't think I said that fear was more real than happiness.  I'm just noticing that life is mostly struggle for survival.  That in itself is not enough to make life valuable to us overall. So the brain helps us out by chems to make things tolerable.  Kind of like how the body can go into shock to ease the pains of dying.





that I agree that chemicals do drive us to survive. I don't think that makes the world 'bad'. It is what it is. If all sentient life was whipped out, the universe would go on uncaring about good or bad.:shrug:
Good and bad are subjective chemical states in the brain.

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Pills make you feel good. [Re: White Beard]
    #21093964 - 01/09/15 07:32 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Well of course I'm speaking subjectively.  I could care less that the universe is mostly indifferent to my plight.  I fucking care. :satansmoking:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
Humble Student

Registered: 11/30/11
Posts: 26,088
Loc: Deep in the system Flag
Re: Pills make you feel good. [Re: White Beard]
    #21093975 - 01/09/15 07:34 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

I agree in that the universe, and this world as part of it, seems to be in no way inherently 'bad'. What does seem bad is all that humanity has wreaked upon our corner of the universe.

Not sure if that's the 'bad' Ice was referring to, but it seems that way to me.


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe

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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
happy mutant
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
Re: Pills make you feel good. [Re: Icelander] * 2
    #21094923 - 01/09/15 11:15 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Now isn't that interesting?  Pills can make you feel good and feel all is right with the world even if only temporarily. 

I made the comment in another thread that our brains/bodies naturally release chemicals that make us feel good. But when the balance is upset and there are not enough of those chemicals we can feel bad. And why do we feel "bad"?  My latest suspicion is that we feel bad because world is bad. In the sense of being ultimately uncomfortable or unrewarding or downright ugly if you're a sensitive type.  Violent, competitive, with lots of survival issues and disease processes and on and on.  This life isn't very pleasant and so our brain releases chemicals to buffer the blow  of reality.  Just like pills do. :monkeydance:




Well, I know what you mean... One of the last times I took acid I was out camping with somebody who was obviously experiencing some sort of sensory overload, his brain just couldn't filter out any unwanted information - the hot weather or the mosquitoes etc., it's like his sensory volume knob was on full blast.  If that knob is dialed too high, everything is gonna be irritating, the thickness in his throat when swallowing, the brightness of the sun, the dryness in his eyes...  Meanwhile I was blissing, and though I felt empathy for him, even that was cathartic, releasing grief into the wind.

Now I dunno if experiencing life in such a negative way is a closer approximation of reality, and others merely release enough feel good chemicals to buffer out the intrinsic shittiness of it all...  It might be that his brain was feeding him too many shitty chems, too much cortisol, distorting his perception of reality, in an environment that was otherwise not threatening to at all. 

It's worth considering that we don't experience the whole world all at once, rather the environment we're locally in.  So even if you're in a physically comfortable space, where warm and loving friends abound, one can be pretty darned certain that it's a shitty day out there for many people, even if in this moment you're drinking a latte in your nice, comfortable house, you can be reading about the tragedies of other people online.  There's cognitive dissonance between what's in front of you and what's out assuredly out there.  Precisely how much do we have to forget about what's happening out there to enjoy what's right there in front of us?  Does bliss intrinsically come at the expense of awareness?

But I still feel ya.... There's definitely times I've been stoned out of my gourd listening to music on my iPhone while walking down the city street, blissfully stepping over the homeless bum passed out on the sidewalk.  My mum, who's pretty sheltered to all that stuff, is freaked by a day in my city life.  I've adapted to some really terrible things, as there's a lot of reward on a personal level to living here.

You've raised a good point, I'll meet you half way and say your brain chem reveals some truths and hides others.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
Outer Head
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,885
Re: Pills make you feel good. [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #21096402 - 01/10/15 10:17 AM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Great post, CJ.  This especially resonated with me:

Quote:

There's cognitive dissonance between what's in front of you and what's out assuredly out there.  Precisely how much do we have to forget about what's happening out there to enjoy what's right there in front of us?  Does bliss intrinsically come at the expense of awareness?




Excellent observation.  :thumbup:


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Pills make you feel good. [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #21096458 - 01/10/15 10:30 AM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

CosmicJoke said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Now isn't that interesting?  Pills can make you feel good and feel all is right with the world even if only temporarily. 

I made the comment in another thread that our brains/bodies naturally release chemicals that make us feel good. But when the balance is upset and there are not enough of those chemicals we can feel bad. And why do we feel "bad"?  My latest suspicion is that we feel bad because world is bad. In the sense of being ultimately uncomfortable or unrewarding or downright ugly if you're a sensitive type.  Violent, competitive, with lots of survival issues and disease processes and on and on.  This life isn't very pleasant and so our brain releases chemicals to buffer the blow  of reality.  Just like pills do. :monkeydance:




Well, I know what you mean... One of the last times I took acid I was out camping with somebody who was obviously experiencing some sort of sensory overload, his brain just couldn't filter out any unwanted information - the hot weather or the mosquitoes etc., it's like his sensory volume knob was on full blast.  If that knob is dialed too high, everything is gonna be irritating, the thickness in his throat when swallowing, the brightness of the sun, the dryness in his eyes...  Meanwhile I was blissing, and though I felt empathy for him, even that was cathartic, releasing grief into the wind.

Now I dunno if experiencing life in such a negative way is a closer approximation of reality, and others merely release enough feel good chemicals to buffer out the intrinsic shittiness of it all...  It might be that his brain was feeding him too many shitty chems, too much cortisol, distorting his perception of reality, in an environment that was otherwise not threatening to at all. 

It's worth considering that we don't experience the whole world all at once, rather the environment we're locally in.  So even if you're in a physically comfortable space, where warm and loving friends abound, one can be pretty darned certain that it's a shitty day out there for many people, even if in this moment you're drinking a latte in your nice, comfortable house, you can be reading about the tragedies of other people online.  There's cognitive dissonance between what's in front of you and what's out assuredly out there.  Precisely how much do we have to forget about what's happening out there to enjoy what's right there in front of us?  Does bliss intrinsically come at the expense of awareness?

But I still feel ya.... There's definitely times I've been stoned out of my gourd listening to music on my iPhone while walking down the city street, blissfully stepping over the homeless bum passed out on the sidewalk.  My mum, who's pretty sheltered to all that stuff, is freaked by a day in my city life.  I've adapted to some really terrible things, as there's a lot of reward on a personal level to living here.

You've raised a good point, I'll meet you half way and say your brain chem reveals some truths and hides others.





Excellent post :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Pills make you feel good. [Re: Jokeshopbeard] * 1
    #21096475 - 01/10/15 10:34 AM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Jokeshopbeard said:
I agree in that the universe, and this world as part of it, seems to be in no way inherently 'bad'. What does seem bad is all that humanity has wreaked upon our corner of the universe.

Not sure if that's the 'bad' Ice was referring to, but it seems that way to me.





Well there's a little more to it.  The bad I'm referring to is universal and not just humanity.  Besides nature made us this way. We had nothing whatsoever to do with it.  Life itself is intrinsically survival and struggle and not just because humans make things even uglier.  Dukkha = life is basically unsatisfactory in the long run.

I'm of course speaking subjectively when I use terms good and bad but that's the way we do things. Subjectively.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleLunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story
Male User Gallery

Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
Re: Pills make you feel good. [Re: Icelander] * 1
    #21096495 - 01/10/15 10:37 AM (9 years, 4 months ago)

What a buzz kill.

:pipesmoke:


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.

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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,485
Re: Pills make you feel good. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #21096694 - 01/10/15 11:32 AM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Lakefingers said:
I've read your analysis three times and I think you’re trying to reinvent the wheel.



read it again:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
can we get to the feeling part of feeling good?
what is feeling?

my (derivative) analysis is that there are only 3 feelings:
PAIN neutral PLEASURE.

they are atomic in the sense that you can have multiple and mixed feelings connected with ideas and experiences:
for example
  • an experience at a picnic table eating a sandwich in the shade with pleasurable taste (of peanutbutter and jam) was one atomic pleasure experience
  • an experience of falling over a tree root and breaking my leg with intense pain and tears was a an atomic pain experience
  • an experience of sitting in school watching the teacher writing something was a neutral experience (no pain or pleasure)

these may mix together in my mind to greater or lesser degrees when I come upon an old tree in the park, but the strongest one will dominate and characterize the new momentary experience as having a recollection of PAIN, Neurtral or PLEASURE. And, since these are memories of feelings and not current body feelings, I would call this an EMOTIONAL moment if it had the feeling PAIN, Neurtral or PLEASURE from memory.

so two versions of feelings of three kinds can fill the mind, ie. actual body feelings (P/N/P) and memories of body feelings (EMOTIONS).

PILLS/ chemistry can affect sensation in different ways, such as anaesthetically or to intensify, and they can affect mental processing (the whole psyciatric and psychedelic range of effects)

I find most of the feel good of chemistry, or technically the Pleasurable side of chemistry in feeling is actually a reduction of PAIN, or an enhancement of imagination.

Another class of effects termed Euphoria, is harder to come to grips with, but I think it has less pain, some enhancement of imagination and acceleration of blood flow to key areas of the body that can be considered exhilarating when stimulated.

As regards EMOTIONS, chemistry usually operates by reducing memory function so that emotions (which are often painful) are less likely.




I am redesigning (refining, not re-inventing the round shaped) wheels all the time,
and I am not discarding some ancient principles either.
but there is something in it for you as well.

bear in mind that pain, is generated in part by pain sensors, and the pain sensors collaborate with other sensors.
i.e. pressure is ok, but too much pressure gets pain, it is an overload, but also a warning signal.
same with heat,
same with light,
same with sound.

in any case, immoderate sensation is pain, while moderate sensation in a harmonious balance is pleasure.

but wait, is there not a pleasure center in the brain? hmmm, well what the hell? maybe that is where the harmony is picked up (noticed, detected, relayed), or maybe it is a nexus that operates a continuous sweep for rhythmic correspondences from any senses or memories, like visual beauty, music, gastronomic delights and even philosophic eureka's.

most likely a simple thing like harmonic progressions, the golden section, and sexual congress combine in the one pleasure center which acknowledges that it is in the zone, and does what it can to keep the homeostasis in the zone.

same wheel, spinning


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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