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Violet
Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 4,205
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Lost grain nutrition in preparation - Pinning down BE & discovering lost potential
#21092753 - 01/09/15 02:22 PM (9 years, 2 months ago) |
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The post title isn't exactly accurate - the nutrition lost from the grains into their prep water during preparation isn't truly Lost until the cultivator wastes that water by throwing it away.
I wanted to quantify two things:
1. How much dry grain substrate I truly am using when I grow, therefore having a more accurate knowledge about my Biological Efficiency (B.E.), which is really just yield-per-substrate or output-per-input.
2. How much of that grain substrate is dissolved into the water when I prepare it, which would tell me the yield that water is capable of.
I have used grainwater for my agar for years now and know that it's more than capable of that kind of growth, but now that there are ways to grow actual full fruits from it (POMS) I think it's now very beneficial to know how much of our potential yield is being flushed down the drain when there is a grow method, which requires absolutely no lost materials except a tiny fraction of agar-agar, that almost effortlessly yields from that grainwater and allows several novel and highly functional culturing shortcuts and selection methods.
I might chat more about all this later on, but for now without further ado...
I used brown rice for this experiment. I and others (including RR I recall) believe brown rice to be the most nutritious grain for our purposes. This is no surprise seeing as brown rice seems to lose the largest amount of starches and other nutrition to the water yet still seems to keep on par with the yields of other grains (or better?) even after losing all that.
Here is 100 grams of brown rice.
It was prepared in the microwave with 400mL of water.
After it was prepared, I separated the rice and the ricewater. The rice was laid out on a pan to dry and the ricewater in a dish to evaporate.
After the rice had mostly dried overnight, I had to microwave it several times to get the last traces of water. I'm pretty sure I got most or all of it as each microwaving got to where it only reduced the weight of the dried-up rice by a tad more.
After several rounds, the original 100.0 grams of rice dried down to just 86.5g!
That's about a 9.5% loss of grain nutrition to the water, due to the original water content of the 'dry' grain which I would later learn.
(This might be different, likely lesser, with other grains [which I do not see as necessarily an advantage])
This means my containers of brown rice which I thought contained ~71g of grain (1 pound made around 6 1/2 cups, 6 1/2 containers) may have contained as little as ~63! When I thought I had 250%BE I actually had more like 280%
Quote:
TheEaglesGift said: You should see if you can further dry your brown rice for some aspect of control. I'm referring to the 100 grams of brown rice that you started with. It's possible it contained some moisture from the start, which would skew the results.
That ended up being a good suggestion.
I took 50g of grains,
spread them out on the microwave plate, and microwaved them until the weight wouldn't reduce much further.
I'm sure it depends on the grains and their storage, as certainly this number can and will fluctuate, but at the moment it seems as if my rice is 3.5-4% moisture.
So, in the last experiment, that 13.5g weight loss may have been more like just 9.5% considering the initial water content of the "dry" rice.
________________________________________________________
I did another experiment, this time with 104g of brown rice, which should equal to about 100g accounting for the water to be lost.
This time I allowed the grainwater to settle for a while (most settling is done in 20 minutes) to divide the two different appearances of ricewater.
The opaque water was poured off the top, separating it from the thick white starchy settled water.
I used a stove eye and ceramic dish to expedite total evaporation of the water.
From the opaque water: 2.3g dry grainmatter
From the thick water: 4.5g dry grainmatter
for a total of 6.8g dry grainmatter lost to the prep water this time.
So for whatever reason I lost almost 3 fewer grams of rice matter to the water this time than the first, accounting for the probable water content in the grains used for the first. Probably due to differences in the way I prepared them in the microwave, but who knows for sure. I don't actually prepare them in the microwave for grows, I only did so for this experiment. Perhaps the larger amounts of grain and water, with consistent simmering procedure, would show a more consistent loss to the water.
________________________________________________________
So I did both tests again.
Firstly I dried out another set of grains to see how correct my initial moisture content test was.
Dried the SHIT out of them this time, to where many popped and burned some, and was able to get a full 8% moisture loss. It's possible that the grains are collecting a bit more humidity over time in my room, and equally possible that there was just a tad more moisture to boil away anyway.
Regardless, this time I was significantly more thorough than I have been before, so it's reasonable that my other tests could have had an even greater percentage of nutrition loss than measured if I had tried to get every last molecule out of the boiled rice to the degree that I did this unprepared rice. I still consider all results still standing as they were, given the understanding that there's always a tad of moisture somewhere no matter how hard we try to get rid of every last molecule. These results are still plenty enough to educate ourselves and come to a better-than-general understanding about the nature of this thread.
Mainly, I did the primary test again, but this time boiling stovetop-style as I normally do, instead of the microwave which I used for the prior posts.
104 grams of rice (given that the last drying test had shown 4% moisture) in like 600-700mL of water since much will be lost as steam.
Got it up to a nice steady boil, but not hard boiling...
After the steady simmer continued for about 20min, a good bit of water had steamed away and the rice fluffed up nicely.
I separated the rice and the water. The rice was allowed to air dry under a fan. The grainwater I am using to test agar sterilization in the microwave.
Once the new grains had air dried a lot, I forcibly dried the shit out of them as well. The result: ... Crap. I accidentally deleted the LAST photo I took, likewise accidentally keeping one I took before I finished drying the last bit out of the grain that I could. Well, maybe you'll take my word on this one. I'll post the photo I accidentally kept and uploaded...
... but the final total I got it down to was 87.8g, not the 89 shown above.
So this time I had a 12g 12% loss to the prep water, which due to steaming a lot of moisture away, is a very thick and starchy 100mL that's quite indicative of being loaded with ricematter.
If, theoretically, we should have used 108g grain instead of 104 to account for 8% moisture instead of 4%, then instead of 12g 12% matter lost to the water it's 8g 8%. Similarly, with the LAST test I did that lost ~7g 7% it would actually be 3g 3%.
So regardless of the initial water content of the 'dry' grains, I lost essentially double as much nutrition to the water in the stovetop prep compared to the microwaved prep. (The stovetop prep is preferable and what I always use.) Might have been a tad more had I used as much water as I should have.
Edited by Violet (09/30/15 08:45 PM)
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PussyFart
Retired Cultivation Extrodinaire
Registered: 04/08/12
Posts: 22,502
Loc: Orbiting Earth
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Re: Lost grain nutrition in preparation - Pinning down BE & discovering lost potential [Re: Violet]
#21092789 - 01/09/15 02:33 PM (9 years, 2 months ago) |
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-------------------- THIS HOBBY IS NOT FOR THE IMPATIENT! PLEASE BE PATIENT, DON'T BE A PATIENT! A Tale of 10 Isolates, GT Cluster Clone Monotubs, RR's Let's Grow Mushrooms DVD, SGFC(Shotgun Fruiting Chamber), Monotub Tek, Damion5050's Coir Tek, TL's Tek List, Frank's Tek List, EvilMushroom666's Pasteurization Tek, How It Should & Shouldn't Look - NEW CULTIVATORS GUIDE *** *** AFGHAN KUSH GROW LOG *** ***
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cronicr
Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 61,436
Loc: Van Isle
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Re: Lost grain nutrition in preparation - Pinning down BE & discovering lost potential [Re: PussyFart]
#21092827 - 01/09/15 02:40 PM (9 years, 2 months ago) |
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-------------------- It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
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MudaFuka
Poppin bottles
Registered: 12/14/13
Posts: 18,648
Loc: Canada
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Re: Lost grain nutrition in preparation - Pinning down BE & discovering lost potential [Re: cronicr]
#21092867 - 01/09/15 02:49 PM (9 years, 2 months ago) |
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I use my grain water to hydrate the coir in my bottle subs. I don't waste a drop.
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Violet
Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 4,205
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Re: Lost grain nutrition in preparation - Pinning down BE & discovering lost potential [Re: MudaFuka]
#21092904 - 01/09/15 02:56 PM (9 years, 2 months ago) |
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Good! I'm sure most or all of that is used. That's perfect for the bottle tek like that, and probably also for mycobag blocks too. Hopefully people won't see that and jump to hydrating monotub subs with it, But since that 13.5g mater at 250%BE would yield like 3.4g, that grainwater is definitely useful and valuable. I should add that to the OP
-------------------- Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it! PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers The simplest, quickest, safest tek! For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers! • Violet's Teks and Posts •
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shroominmyroom
Grasshopper
Registered: 10/30/14
Posts: 3,639
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Re: Lost grain nutrition in preparation - Pinning down BE & discovering lost potential [Re: Violet]
#21093080 - 01/09/15 03:39 PM (9 years, 2 months ago) |
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Edited by shroominmyroom (12/04/17 10:16 PM)
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MudaFuka
Poppin bottles
Registered: 12/14/13
Posts: 18,648
Loc: Canada
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Re: Lost grain nutrition in preparation - Pinning down BE & discovering lost potential [Re: shroominmyroom]
#21093164 - 01/09/15 03:56 PM (9 years, 2 months ago) |
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Yah. I should have mentioned that. Don't hydrate anything with grain water unless you plan on sterilising it and keeping it sterile until it's fully colonised.
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TheEaglesGift
The Nagual
Registered: 04/10/11
Posts: 10,554
Loc: Ixtlan, Mexico
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Re: Lost grain nutrition in preparation - Pinning down BE & discovering lost potential [Re: MudaFuka] 1
#21093253 - 01/09/15 04:21 PM (9 years, 2 months ago) |
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You should see if you can further dry your brown rice for some aspect of control. I'm referring to the 100 grams of brown rice that you started with. It's possible it contained some moisture from the start, which would skew the results.
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Violet
Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 4,205
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Re: Lost grain nutrition in preparation - Pinning down BE & discovering lost potential [Re: TheEaglesGift]
#21093269 - 01/09/15 04:24 PM (9 years, 2 months ago) |
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I did consider that at one point. Figured it couldn't matter too much since it's what we go by measuring initially regardless. But in the interest of further accuracy I will do that alongside the next prep I do when I want to separate the "thick" settled grainwater I use for poms and the "clear" grainwater I use for dishes.
Anyways, if I didn't lose a full 13.5g then the evaporated grainwater will reveal fewer than 13.5g of starch flake. I will be continuing to edit the OP as I hone in on this even further.
-------------------- Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it! PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers The simplest, quickest, safest tek! For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers! • Violet's Teks and Posts •
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TheEaglesGift
The Nagual
Registered: 04/10/11
Posts: 10,554
Loc: Ixtlan, Mexico
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Re: Lost grain nutrition in preparation - Pinning down BE & discovering lost potential [Re: Violet]
#21095119 - 01/10/15 12:34 AM (9 years, 2 months ago) |
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I'm curious to see how this thread turns out.
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Srirachi
Mold Hand
Registered: 10/18/05
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Re: Lost grain nutrition in preparation - Pinning down BE & discovering lost potential [Re: TheEaglesGift]
#21095137 - 01/10/15 12:42 AM (9 years, 2 months ago) |
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Violet
Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 4,205
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Re: Lost grain nutrition in preparation - Pinning down BE & discovering lost potential [Re: Violet]
#21112281 - 01/13/15 08:21 AM (9 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Violet said:
Quote:
TheEaglesGift said: You should see if you can further dry your brown rice for some aspect of control. I'm referring to the 100 grams of brown rice that you started with. It's possible it contained some moisture from the start, which would skew the results.
I did consider that at one point. Figured it couldn't matter too much since it's what we go by measuring initially regardless. But in the interest of further accuracy I will do that
That ended up being a good suggestion.
I took 50g of grains,
spread them out on the microwave plate, and microwaved them until the weight wouldn't reduce much further.
I'm sure it depends on the grains and their storage, as certainly this number can and will fluctuate, but at the moment it seems as if my rice is 3.5-4% moisture.
So, in the last experiment, that 13.5g weight loss may have been more like just 9.5% considering the initial water content of the "dry" rice.
My supposition of a 250%BE grow from that dry weight would yield ~2.4g from the additional nutrition in the ricewater from just 100g of rice prepared, a bit over 1 1/3 of the 1-cup load in a container for a grow.
I did another experiment, this time with 104g of brown rice, which should equal to about 100g accounting for the water to be lost.
This time I allowed the grainwater to settle for a while (most settling is done in 20 minutes) to divide the two different appearances of ricewater.
The opaque water was poured off the top, separating it from the thick white starchy settled water.
I used a stove eye and ceramic dish to expedite total evaporation of the water.
From the opaque water: 2.3g dry grainmatter
From the thick water: 4.5g dry grainmatter
for a total of 6.8g dry grainmatter lost to the prep water this time.
So for whatever reason I lost almost 3 fewer grams of rice matter to the water this time than the first, accounting for the probable water content in the grains used for the first. Probably due to differences in the way I prepared them in the microwave, but who knows for sure. I don't actually prepare them in the microwave for grows, I only did so for this experiment. Perhaps the larger amounts of grain and water, with consistent simmering procedure, would show a more consistent loss to the water.
-------------------- Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it! PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers The simplest, quickest, safest tek! For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers! • Violet's Teks and Posts •
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bodhisatta
Smurf real estate agent
Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,891
Loc: Milky way
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Re: Lost grain nutrition in preparation - Pinning down BE & discovering lost potential [Re: Violet]
#21112302 - 01/13/15 08:32 AM (9 years, 2 months ago) |
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This is kind of irrelevant but I once prepared a few quarts of rye and saved the grain water into a empty handle of vodka 1.75L. I just poured it in and was going to use it in a few days. Never sterilized it. it never contaminated in months. I did pour it in hot likely above 140F.
Even when I first started cultivating I saw all that water runoff from preparation of grain and thought why in the world would you pour this out. I've always found a way to use it from agar to coir prep
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Violet
Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 4,205
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Re: Lost grain nutrition in preparation - Pinning down BE & discovering lost potential [Re: bodhisatta]
#21119913 - 01/14/15 10:48 AM (9 years, 2 months ago) |
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Cool, seems as if you "pasteurized" the grainwater. I wonder if that knowledge could be of any use, such as if mycelium could grow in a media like that without sterilization.
. . .
So I've been thinking about the amount of nutrition that's in the grainwater. Obviously the concentration can vary, but it does seem certain as if it's going to be less than 10g material per 500mL every time.
The photos above:
With no more than 7g of total matter in like 500mL of water, that's significantly less than is used for agars such as P/D agar or malt extract agar. Especially since I don't use the thick settled part for agar dishes...
The test showed there to be just 2.3g of rice matter in the ~350mL of 'opaque' ricewater I poured off the top. Keeping that proportion for 500mL, that's only 3.3g of ricematter for 500mL!
It must vary some, and as thought above a more thorough prep might show more matter more consistently lost to the water, but I highly doubt it would be TRIPLE the nutrition into the 'opaque' liquid after settling. I doubt even double.
So my agar dishes probably have half-ish the nutrition of the common recipe preparations. One might think that to be a problem, were it not that I've had growth like this for years...
I've had thousands of containers, and the only ones that seemed to be "too little nutritious" were diluted grass seed water. They still grew out fine of course.
Could it be the case that the mycelium don't need such a high load of this nutrition since it is a natural complete medium for them? That's my theory at least. Mycelium can do more with less in the case of grains, than with potato starches or sweets.
-------------------- Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it! PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers The simplest, quickest, safest tek! For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers! • Violet's Teks and Posts •
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blackdust
Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 8,327
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Re: Lost grain nutrition in preparation - Pinning down BE & discovering lost potential [Re: Violet]
#21124948 - 01/15/15 01:02 PM (9 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Violet said: Cool, seems as if you "pasteurized" the grainwater. I wonder if that knowledge could be of any use, such as if mycelium could grow in a media like that without sterilization.
. . .
So I've been thinking about the amount of nutrition that's in the grainwater. Obviously the concentration can vary, but it does seem certain as if it's going to be less than 10g material per 500mL every time.
The photos above:
With no more than 7g of total matter in like 500mL of water, that's significantly less than is used for agars such as P/D agar or malt extract agar. Especially since I don't use the thick settled part for agar dishes...
The test showed there to be just 2.3g of rice matter in the ~350mL of 'opaque' ricewater I poured off the top. Keeping that proportion for 500mL, that's only 3.3g of ricematter for 500mL!
It must vary some, and as thought above a more thorough prep might show more matter more consistently lost to the water, but I highly doubt it would be TRIPLE the nutrition into the 'opaque' liquid after settling. I doubt even double.
So my agar dishes probably have half-ish the nutrition of the common recipe preparations. One might think that to be a problem, were it not that I've had growth like this for years...
I've had thousands of containers, and the only ones that seemed to be "too little nutritious" were diluted grass seed water. They still grew out fine of course.
Could it be the case that the mycelium don't need such a high load of this nutrition since it is a natural complete medium for them? That's my theory at least. Mycelium can do more with less in the case of grains, than with potato starches or sweets.
This is a good post. Kinda rings to my thoughts of POMS tek being an agar dish with a object (scrub pad) for a support for fruits to grow from.
--- Also, by using grain water from the type of grain that will be used to generate grain spawn for creating an agar dish is SMART. Why? The mycelium will know about what it's future food source will be. Thus, better preparing the mycelium for it's new environment when inculcating the agar (made with grain water) to grain for expansion. I would think the mycelium would be healthier and faster then using a different recipe for the agar dishes. What to look for in picking a agar recipe, spawn, or substrate? how well the mycelium like the substance as measured by the speed of growth. Note, I'm talking out my ass but do believe the above statement for the time being until proven wrong.
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Grey
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Re: Lost grain nutrition in preparation - Pinning down BE & discovering lost potential [Re: blackdust]
#21125207 - 01/15/15 02:09 PM (9 years, 2 months ago) |
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I agree with that theory. I was watching a video where the guy"trained" the mycelium to colonize cellulose cigarette filters (clean), and once it was accustomed to growing on that medium he added used cellulose cigarette filters (unclean) and they colonized them pretty well. Less change for the mycelium.
-------------------- AMU Q&A If you don't have a plan of your own, you'll become a part of somebody else's.
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taGyo
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Re: Lost grain nutrition in preparation - Pinning down BE & discovering lost potential [Re: Grey]
#21125479 - 01/15/15 03:30 PM (9 years, 2 months ago) |
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-------------------- Gyo's Better Grows TNF Q&A AMU Q&A Dominus fortunae meae sum
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Mushroom_J
Hard to the Coir !
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Re: Lost grain nutrition in preparation - Pinning down BE & discovering lost potential [Re: blackdust]
#21125524 - 01/15/15 03:40 PM (9 years, 2 months ago) |
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Isn't it dextrose that's added to agar to keep myc from becoming "addicted" to the other ingredients? (pda, malt etc)
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Violet
Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 4,205
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Re: Lost grain nutrition in preparation - Pinning down BE & discovering lost potential [Re: Mushroom_J]
#21125680 - 01/15/15 04:16 PM (9 years, 2 months ago) |
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If anything, it's alternating one's media that stops mycelium from becoming "addicted" to sweets such as dextrose. Malt isn't so bad, as it is sortof a derivative of malted grain.
-------------------- Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it! PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers The simplest, quickest, safest tek! For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers! • Violet's Teks and Posts •
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend
Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,830
Loc: Canada
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Re: Lost grain nutrition in preparation - Pinning down BE & discovering lost potential [Re: Violet]
#21126841 - 01/15/15 08:44 PM (9 years, 2 months ago) |
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Wow some good stuff here. I was surprised that there was not more nutrition but I suppose that its probably a quality over quantity scenario. I would like to see how other grains stack up in comparison. I know that that I get a much darker solution with other grains and that I get an extremely starchy and thick solution with millet. Millet GW is one of my favorites.
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