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OfflineMushroom_J
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Re: Can potency vary depending on how the mushroom is grown? [Re: SpitballJedi]
    #21068267 - 01/04/15 08:55 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

I think it more the bacteria causing the mushroom to produce the good chemicals as an "immune system" response... like psilocybin is  a natural anti bacterial.


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InvisibleViolet
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Re: Can potency vary depending on how the mushroom is grown? [Re: Bill_Oreilly]
    #21068272 - 01/04/15 08:56 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

There are actually a number of things that can be thought of as known ways to potentially increase potency!
Whereas genetics will ultimately determine what a mycelium CAN do, what the myc WILL do is significantly influenced by what they're given to do it with.

For instance.
It is well-known that more mature mycelium, having consolidated and digested a substrate longer, are notably more likely to produce a stronger potency.


If the convo stays clean and open-minded I may discuss further into less-widely-known/accepted potency influences.


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OfflineTheMustardTiger
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Re: Can potency vary depending on how the mushroom is grown? [Re: Violet]
    #21068302 - 01/04/15 09:01 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Violet said:
For instance.
It is well-known that more mature mycelium, having consolidated and digested a substrate longer, are notably more likely to produce a stronger potency.





Source?


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InvisibleInocuole
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Re: Can potency vary depending on how the mushroom is grown? [Re: Violet]
    #21068330 - 01/04/15 09:06 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Violet said:
If the convo stays clean and open-minded I may discuss further into less-widely-known/accepted potency influences.




I honestly think this was the only thing that didn't need to be said.  I know people fuck with you sometimes but whether you want it to or not, saying things like that will bait them.  I know this because I'm very familiar with how the antagonistic mind works, being pretty damn antagonistic myself.  It's like an open invitation to be fucked with, despite the intention being the opposite.  People suck.  :shrug:

I do want to hear what you have to say though, and I think we can probably get cron to bring his hammer if anybody wants to get rowdy.


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OfflineMushroom_J
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Re: Can potency vary depending on how the mushroom is grown? [Re: Violet]
    #21068332 - 01/04/15 09:07 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

When i read the McKenna bros book they suggested as an optional additive potassium phosphate... i always wondered about that.


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InvisibleViolet
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Re: Can potency vary depending on how the mushroom is grown? [Re: TheMustardTiger]
    #21068351 - 01/04/15 09:11 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Like almost all things relevant to potency, it's something that certain members of the forums have been exploring for a long time.

The first thing I think to point to in reference to this topic specifically...
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/15181139#15181139

A post by RR in the thread, where he has noticed the same thing.
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/15250420#15250420

I'm surprised fewer people have heard of this effect.  Among some well-tenured growers I've spoken with, on the forums and off, it is a known trick – using methods that allow for consolidation without premature fruiting.
Quote:

Inocuole said:


Quote:

Violet said:
If the convo stays clean and open-minded I may discuss further into less-widely-known/accepted potency influences.



I honestly think this was the only thing that didn't need to be said.  I know people fuck with you sometimes but whether you want it to or not, saying things like that will bait them.  I know this because I'm very familiar with how the antagonistic mind works, being pretty damn antagonistic myself.  It's like an open invitation to be fucked with, despite the intention being the opposite.  People suck.  :shrug:

I do want to hear what you have to say though, and I think we can probably get cron to bring his hammer if anybody wants to get rowdy.




Oh, trust me, it needed to be said.
I entered this thread tentatively, practically expecting to be attacked, because I ALWAYS HAVE BEEN.
I love this topic and it is a NECESSARY topic for us as cultivators, but as soon as I've said anything that isn't said by RR himself or a peer-reviewed published research paper, people start cranking up the flamethrowers.

I don't care whether you think it didn't need to be said or not.
If you or anyone really want to hear my thoughts about it, pray that people let me without pretending as if I'm spreading a magical gospel


--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!

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Offlinespacechildo
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Re: Can potency vary depending on how the mushroom is grown? [Re: Violet]
    #21068366 - 01/04/15 09:14 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

if you wanna say something regarding potency just do it, if you dont wanna then dont :shrug:
a little early to start being defensive dont you think? :levitate:  <-- yes that's how you should be.

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OfflineTheMustardTiger
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Re: Can potency vary depending on how the mushroom is grown? [Re: Violet]
    #21068373 - 01/04/15 09:15 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Interesting. Still, it would be nice to have some real data instead of anecdotal evidence. In time, I suppose.


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InvisibleInocuole
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Re: Can potency vary depending on how the mushroom is grown? [Re: Violet]
    #21068378 - 01/04/15 09:16 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Okay well... I'm just putting it out there because I do want to hear what you say, and I can see from where I'm sitting that some of the things you say are enough to bring trolls out of hiding.  I know you're gonna do you, either way, but, just placing that objective piece of info out there to be digested.  People look for those who are already defensive to toy with because they're the most fun to get reactions from.  :shrug:

Regarding consolidation time, does this seem to apply mostly to the final substrate or can something that has been consolidated be spawned again and still retain some of whatever has affected the potency?  I would imagine if using bulk substrates, that you would want to consolidate those, vs the grain.

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OfflineTheMustardTiger
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Re: Can potency vary depending on how the mushroom is grown? [Re: TheMustardTiger]
    #21068395 - 01/04/15 09:21 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

PrimalSoup said:
Had been isolated some on agar, not a pure culture as it's shown overlapping flushing behavior.

:peace:PS




That also concerns me. The culture was just cleaned up, not a true isolate. I think I speak for most when I say that I've had my fair share of variance in potency with different grows so I certainly wouldn't accept this as proof of anything. Definitely something to look at, though.


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OfflineBluntsenBurner
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Re: Can potency vary depending on how the mushroom is grown? [Re: Violet]
    #21068448 - 01/04/15 09:30 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Violet said:
Like almost all things relevant to potency, it's something that certain members of the forums have been exploring for a long time.

The first thing I think to point to in reference to this topic specifically...
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/15181139#15181139

A post by RR in the thread, where he has noticed the same thing.
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/15250420#15250420

I'm surprised fewer people have heard of this effect.  Among some well-tenured growers I've spoken with, on the forums and off, it is a known trick – using methods that allow for consolidation without premature fruiting.
Quote:

Inocuole said:


Quote:

Violet said:
If the convo stays clean and open-minded I may discuss further into less-widely-known/accepted potency influences.



I honestly think this was the only thing that didn't need to be said.  I know people fuck with you sometimes but whether you want it to or not, saying things like that will bait them.  I know this because I'm very familiar with how the antagonistic mind works, being pretty damn antagonistic myself.  It's like an open invitation to be fucked with, despite the intention being the opposite.  People suck.  :shrug:

I do want to hear what you have to say though, and I think we can probably get cron to bring his hammer if anybody wants to get rowdy.




Oh, trust me, it needed to be said.
I entered this thread tentatively, practically expecting to be attacked, because I ALWAYS HAVE BEEN.
I love this topic and it is a NECESSARY topic for us as cultivators, but as soon as I've said anything that isn't said by RR himself or a peer-reviewed published research paper, people start cranking up the flamethrowers.

I don't care whether you think it didn't need to be said or not.
If you or anyone really want to hear my thoughts about it, pray that people let me without pretending as if I'm spreading a magical gospel



Don't worry about what anyone else thinks, any idea that provokes thought or can possibly help or revolutionize something in anyway is great. "The question is whether it is crazy enough to be have a chance of being correct." <--- awesome quote


--------------------
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Edited by BluntsenBurner (01/04/15 09:31 PM)

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InvisibleViolet
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Re: Can potency vary depending on how the mushroom is grown? [Re: TheMustardTiger]
    #21068460 - 01/04/15 09:32 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

"Defensive"?
See I can't even say I don't want people to attack me on this topic, as they have EVERY SINGLE OTHER TIME WITHOUT EXCEPTION, without those very same people pretending as if my tentativeness on this topic is undeserved.

Maybe I just don't want to have a conversation about this that isn't fun?  For Christ's sake.

Quote:

TheMustardTiger said:
Interesting. Still, it would be nice to have some real data instead of anecdotal evidence. In time, I suppose.




Wouldn't it?  I really wish we had a trustworthy and reliable way of quantifying this subject.  TOO BAD.  "Anecdotal" is all we have.
I pulled this from my original seed & plastic tek post, just for a reference
Quote:

I will only discuss the matter of potency with those open-mindedly willing to move towards its improvement.
Do not drop-in with your opinions about potency's relevance or the supposed impossibility of objectively improving it, I've heard them all.

The best that we can do to determine potency is bioassay - eat and see, eliminating as many other variables as ya can. This is unfortunate, as people jump to throw-out such "subjective" information, especially when it points to conclusions that such people do not like.
My friends, we must be willing to accept the limitations of bioassay for now, until accurate and accessible ways of measuring Psilo% are devised.
The good news is that the results of bioassay are truly the only thing of real importance when it comes to potency, and over a wide enough scale/timeline it can become clear if there truly is a difference. If what would otherwise give you the mental tingles leaves you flat-backed and mind-fucked then most would consider that a pretty strong indicator of significant potency difference.




It irritates me how little regard some people have for "anecdotal" evidence when it's what much of our hobby is built upon.  Eventually "anecdotal" things can (and have) become common knowledge, because we have been able to accept the reality of them before the report comes in so-to-speak.

I get a giggle out of how MJ growers knew beyond a doubt that certain cropping methods yielded a 3-5 times potent product LONG LONG LONG before the "data" came in.
Some people experienced the proof-in-the-pudding while others held out for info, yelling "randomness" and "subjectivity" and all that lot.
By the time the "data" came in, the difference between "mids" and "dank" was WELL known.

Quote:

Potency is a sensitive subject for many people. It's laden with variables, and worst of all it's not currently possible to quantifiably determine.
The solution that is most taken and shared is to forget about trying to control potency because of how many variables there are.

I've seen many variations of the following sentiment: "Potency is irrelevant. If you want to trip harder, eat more".
That rule-of-thumb works perfectly fine for fungi that you may already have. But this isn't "The Psychedelic Experience" this is "Mushroom Cultivation"; we are acting BEFORE the fact, which allows us to play whatever part in the potency of our project that we can.

Instilling apathy in ourselves and others about the strength of our cultivars is literally the opposite of the ideal way to handle it.

"Potency doesn't matter" is a very poor mentality to take regarding the very reason that we grow at all.
What if marijuana growers had stuck with this mentality? "Potency doesn't matter. If you want to get higher, smoke more." How much sense does THAT make? We'd all be smoking autumn leaves still!




--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!

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Invisibleblackdust
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Re: Can potency vary depending on how the mushroom is grown? [Re: Violet]
    #21068470 - 01/04/15 09:35 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Violet. Just ignore the personal attacks. Some of us like reading your thoughts. (I like reading your opinions). Just keep post and dont let anyone get to you. Here, come to my thread. Let me know what you think. Your opinion is valued.

:awethumb:

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/20931626

I just updated this thread today but it's been going for a while and I have never seen anything like this before.

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InvisibleInocuole
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Re: Can potency vary depending on how the mushroom is grown? [Re: BluntsenBurner]
    #21068481 - 01/04/15 09:37 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Well naturally home growers are going to have the most varied experiences of anyone and not all results are going to be done using proper experimental procedure, but even just a little anecdotal correlation is better than nothing when we're trying to make headway on this topic.

If we're going to advance this we have to be willing to disrupt our status quo.


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OfflineMushroom_J
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Re: Can potency vary depending on how the mushroom is grown? [Re: Violet]
    #21068484 - 01/04/15 09:38 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

So this is why you do your grows in pp5s and don't spawn.
Retaining the original mycelial mass for consolidation and for energy purposes i suppose.... so its not spending life on recolonizing.

You and pasty were talking about this on mudafukers bottle tek.


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Re: Can potency vary depending on how the mushroom is grown? [Re: BluntsenBurner]
    #21068490 - 01/04/15 09:40 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Cubes are geneticly weak anyway


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InvisibleInocuole
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Re: Can potency vary depending on how the mushroom is grown? [Re: cronicr]
    #21068499 - 01/04/15 09:42 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

cronicr said:
Cubes are geneticly weak anyway




Sure but what if there were just a switch to flip so they weren't anymore, so to speak?  Then they'd be super potent, and the easiest fucking thing on the planet to grow.

Easier said than done but, they could evolve or change through selective breeding over time.

Dogs and cats are 10x more potent now than they were in the 1800s.  :takingnotes:


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InvisibleViolet
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Re: Can potency vary depending on how the mushroom is grown? [Re: Mushroom_J]
    #21068505 - 01/04/15 09:44 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

TheMustardTiger said:
Quote:

PrimalSoup said:
Had been isolated some on agar, not a pure culture as it's shown overlapping flushing behavior.

:peace:PS




That also concerns me. The culture was just cleaned up, not a true isolate. I think I speak for most when I say that I've had my fair share of variance in potency with different grows so I certainly wouldn't accept this as proof of anything. Definitely something to look at, though.



Those were likely only the original findings that led to the experimentation.

I doubt that RR's experiences with this, that led him to agreement, were done without monocultures.

Personally I never put mycelium to a full-sized sub that isn't a monoculture.  So all of the findings I've gotten from my guinea pigs were isolate cultures.

Quote:

Inocuole said:
Regarding consolidation time, does this seem to apply mostly to the final substrate or can something that has been consolidated be spawned again and still retain some of whatever has affected the potency?  I would imagine if using bulk substrates, that you would want to consolidate those, vs the grain.



That's what PrimalSoup was doing, and it would be my recommendation.

Some people did experiments with using consolidated "spawn".  I don't really know of the results, and admit to suspecting that they wouldn't be as significant if relevant at all since the mycelium that is maturing on those grains is destroyed.
Pretty sure our very own cronicr was one of the people who did that experiment.  I wonder as to crons findings.  Maybe we'll get a chime-in.


Personally I fruit well-consolidated brown rice cakes directly, with a casing layer of course, meaning a nutrient-dense substrate with far more flushing potential than is required for reproduction gets to fruit without the mycelium ever being destroyed.  The mycelium is significantly more mature at fruiting time and has the full original capability of the grains.  But there may be more to it than just that.

Quote:

Mushroom_J said:
So this is why you do your grows in pp5s and don't spawn.



Yes, that's one big reason.


--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!

PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek!  For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
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InvisibleViolet
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Re: Can potency vary depending on how the mushroom is grown? [Re: Inocuole]
    #21068518 - 01/04/15 09:47 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Inocuole said:
Quote:

cronicr said:
Cubes are geneticly weak anyway




Sure but what if there were just a switch to flip so they weren't anymore, so to speak?  Then they'd be super potent, and the easiest fucking thing on the planet to grow.

Easier said than done but, they could evolve or change through selective breeding over time.

Dogs and cats are 10x more potent now than they were in the 1800s.  :takingnotes:




My Cubie non-PE fruits are as potent now as my straight-grain Galindoi fruits were 2 1/2 years ago (and let's not even talk about my PE).  Back then it was commonly said Galindoi fruits can be expected to be about Twice as potent as the common Cubensis.  These days I hear that people eat 1/2 to 1/4 of mine compared to what they may have been used to prior.


Our cultivated fruits are already known to be noteworthy more potent than outdoor fruits are.  Worth considering that we're growing with grain, a unifying thing behind all indoor cultivation.  And yet people say it's not related to nutrition...


--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!

PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek!  For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
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OfflinecronicrFacebook
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Re: Can potency vary depending on how the mushroom is grown? [Re: Inocuole]
    #21068519 - 01/04/15 09:48 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

The only time it happened was pe which was a genetic mutation, i agree things can help you can read my trip report in primals thread, things like woodlovers(wood being one of the least nutritous subs) are normally very potent but take a lot more consolidation.isthat a coincidense? Maybe it is maybe it isn't.


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