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Offlinestarfire_xes
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How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress?
    #21063979 - 01/04/15 12:48 AM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Executive orders galore, making and breaking his own laws as he sees fit?  Now, if you answer that with 'well, if congress doesn't act, he should' or 'no problem, he's fixing things,' then let me ask you the question again;

How many of you are happy about Obama GOING AROUND THE PEOPLE's REPRESENTATIVES?  YOUR REPRESENTATIVES? 

Are you really happy with your representative being bypassed in the process?  If you still happy about it, will you you be happy with a republican president making an executive order that automatically cuts the corporate income tax to zero? 

Please, no 'BUSH MADE MORE EXECUTIVE ORDERS THAN O....'  OK, Bush was a fucking tool also. 

Making laws by dictorial decree is bad precedent.  Just think about the 'what if' a republican president coming in and doing whatever the fuck he wants.


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InvisiblezZZz
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: starfire_xes] * 1
    #21063996 - 01/04/15 12:56 AM (6 years, 9 months ago)

People seem to say the same about democrats when republicans are in office and vice versa. Apparently who ever is in office become the good guys and the ones just hanging around become the bad guys.,


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Offline420_shroomer
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: zZZz]
    #21064047 - 01/04/15 01:12 AM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Its true! I'm not happy with any politicians, if it wasn't Obama it'd be Romney, or McCain throwing around their weight acting like this, probably worse but who knows? My real question is why mother fuckers chose sides? Non of these ass-fucks are going to do anything good for us anyway...if people think a conservative would do any better, they are just as fucking retarded as our so called leaders!!! You know damn well that money rules this country, and the rich rule the money! Not the politicians!!! Why the hell are people surprised about this????


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: starfire_xes] * 1
    #21064830 - 01/04/15 10:23 AM (6 years, 9 months ago)

I agree it's bad precedent, but Obama certainly didn't set it.  Also, the public has been known to support such action in the past.  The Emancipation Proclamation is a good example of that.

The problem is that our system of government is imperfect.  It's prone to gridlock, and the government is far too large to get very much done at the federal level.  In that context, it can often be that breaking the rules of the system is a better way to represent the will of the people than following them.

Of course, that doesn't make it a good idea.  Discretion like that obviously means that it's just as likely to ignore the voice of the people as it is to serve that voice.  The better solution is to fix the system.  Of course, it's unrealistic to expect a broken system to be very good at fixing itself.

I suppose if I thought the separation of powers as set up by the Constitution was workable for our current government, I'd stand on the principle that we should work within that system.  I don't think it is, however.  It was workable when the federal government was small, but now that it has become what it is, it needs to be changed, or government needs to shrink to a size wherein the current system can work.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Enlil]
    #21065058 - 01/04/15 11:44 AM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
I agree it's bad precedent, but Obama certainly didn't set it.  Also, the public has been known to support such action in the past.  The Emancipation Proclamation is a good example of that.

The problem is that our system of government is imperfect.  It's prone to gridlock, and the government is far too large to get very much done at the federal level.  In that context, it can often be that breaking the rules of the system is a better way to represent the will of the people than following them.

Of course, that doesn't make it a good idea.  Discretion like that obviously means that it's just as likely to ignore the voice of the people as it is to serve that voice.  The better solution is to fix the system.  Of course, it's unrealistic to expect a broken system to be very good at fixing itself.

I suppose if I thought the separation of powers as set up by the Constitution was workable for our current government, I'd stand on the principle that we should work within that system.  I don't think it is, however.  It was workable when the federal government was small, but now that it has become what it is, it needs to be changed, or government needs to shrink to a size wherein the current system can work.





Something like this. :thumbup:


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Icelander] * 1
    #21065256 - 01/04/15 12:57 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

He certainly has expanded it into uncharted territory. 

I didn't like it before and I like it even less now that it has gotten completely out of hand.  This bodes ill for the future of the nation that the Legislature is basically a beard and the Executive branch, through unfettered  bureaucracy,operates directly counter the laws as written.  The Congress has been somewhat complicit in its own emasculation by refusing to make legislation clear and granting bureaucrats too much leeway.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: zappaisgod] * 1
    #21065393 - 01/04/15 01:22 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

That's the nature of a large government, though.  There is no way that the federal government, as it is today, could function without the bureaucracy.  Congress wants to keep expanding its power by making government larger, but it simply cannot directly manage even 1% of the government.  As a result, it has delegated much of that to the administration. 

As government expands, administrative power will expand.  It's inevitable.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Enlil]
    #21065570 - 01/04/15 02:04 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
That's the nature of a large government, though.  There is no way that the federal government, as it is today, could function without the bureaucracy.  Congress wants to keep expanding its power by making government larger, but it simply cannot directly manage even 1% of the government.  As a result, it has delegated much of that to the administration. 

As government expands, administrative power will expand.  It's inevitable.




The problem is that they have delegated legislative powers to unelected and unaccountable bureaucrats.  Case in point;  pinheads declaring CO2 a pollutant.  EPA and DEC bureaucrats think they are legislators and Congress is largely at fault.

Then there is the IRS making up their own rules.  The SEC making up their own rules and INS refusing to enforce the laws on the books.  Also Obamacare waivers granted to favored actors like whining unions


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: zappaisgod] * 1
    #21065591 - 01/04/15 02:08 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Again, there is no other way for a government this size to operate under the Constitution we currently have.  Congress can't possibly keep up with all of it


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Enlil]
    #21065797 - 01/04/15 03:00 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Again, there is no other way for a government this size to operate under the Constitution we currently have.  Congress can't possibly keep up with all of it



You saying it does not carry any imprimatur of authority.  I listed several examples that could easily be carried out if the Executive and the bureaucracy had not gone rogue.


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21066588 - 01/04/15 06:15 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

im curious, do you think there is a current form of government that is better equipped than the 3 branch system?


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: AcidBath]
    #21067005 - 01/04/15 07:43 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

I think the system as originally set in place was great.  Too bad it is extinct.


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InvisiblezZZz
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21067072 - 01/04/15 07:50 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

whos fault do think it was originally?..


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Offlineshroom_sensai
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Enlil]
    #21067100 - 01/04/15 07:55 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
I agree it's bad precedent, but Obama certainly didn't set it.  Also, the public has been known to support such action in the past.  The Emancipation Proclamation is a good example of that.

The problem is that our system of government is imperfect.  It's prone to gridlock, and the government is far too large to get very much done at the federal level.  In that context, it can often be that breaking the rules of the system is a better way to represent the will of the people than following them.

Of course, that doesn't make it a good idea.  Discretion like that obviously means that it's just as likely to ignore the voice of the people as it is to serve that voice.  The better solution is to fix the system.  Of course, it's unrealistic to expect a broken system to be very good at fixing itself.

I suppose if I thought the separation of powers as set up by the Constitution was workable for our current government, I'd stand on the principle that we should work within that system.  I don't think it is, however.  It was workable when the federal government was small, but now that it has become what it is, it needs to be changed, or government needs to shrink to a size wherein the current system can work.




couldnt have said it better myself


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: zZZz] * 2
    #21067127 - 01/04/15 07:58 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

zZZz said:
whos fault do think it was originally?..




To a large extent I blame the Supreme Court for it's interpretation of the Commerce Clause and Congress for being cowards who abdicated their legislative responsibilities to bureaucrats because they were too cowardly to take a stand that might endanger their election chances.


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21067353 - 01/04/15 08:36 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

dont hate the players, hate the game son


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: shroom_sensai] * 1
    #21067475 - 01/04/15 08:57 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

No.  The rules were pretty clear.  The players are clearly cheating and the people are letting them. 

I'm telling you when a Republican wins the White House and does anything close to what Obama has done in terms of establishing an imperial presidency the liberals will be screaming bloody murder.  And I will mock them as the unprincipled whores they are.


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: zappaisgod] * 1
    #21067587 - 01/04/15 09:17 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

unprincipled whores= politicians

im just saying dont hate the players, hate hasbro. the system is fucked.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: shroom_sensai]
    #21067593 - 01/04/15 09:18 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

The system is not fucked.  The voters are.  The system is as good as there is.


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: zappaisgod] * 1
    #21067658 - 01/04/15 09:26 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

the system is fucked man, wake up it doesnt matter who you vote for theyre all controlled by lobbies, who are controlled by corporations.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: shroom_sensai]
    #21067740 - 01/04/15 09:37 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

shroom_sensai said:
the system is fucked man, wake up it doesnt matter who you vote for theyre all controlled by lobbies, who are controlled by corporations.




You are dead wrong.  Corporations do not get to vote.  It is 100% the fault of the voters.  They do not have to listen to any message paid for by anybody and that includes the media.  The problem is an ignorant, uneducated voter class.  I would say that the entity that has been most complicit in producing that is the gotcha media hacks who have made it utterly impossible for a normal human beings to get elected.  That and the education system being controlled by the federal government.  Corporations?  Hardly the issue.  All citizens, and corporations are owned by citizens and have the Constitutionally protected right to petition the government.  Let's consider that most small businesses are incorporated  Should the citizens who own those companies not be allowed to lobby on their own behalf?  If they are allowed but Exxon Mobil is not at what point do you decide which corporations can and which corporations cannot petition the government?


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21068023 - 01/04/15 10:19 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

[  It is 100% the fault of the voters.  /quote]

  No way its 90% the fault of the 40% or so  who don't vote .


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: psilynut]
    #21068228 - 01/04/15 10:49 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

psilynut said:
Quote:

[  It is 100% the fault of the voters.  /quote]

  No way its 90% the fault of the 40% or so  who don't vote .




Do you think they would do anything differently?


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21068234 - 01/04/15 10:50 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

everyone should stop voting and stop paying taxes, problem solved if everyone would decide to do it at the same time.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: shroom_sensai] * 1
    #21068316 - 01/04/15 11:03 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

shroom_sensai said:
everyone should stop voting and stop paying taxes, problem solved if everyone would decide to do it at the same time.




Right.  Anarchy. That might actually move me to get mean out of self preservation.  Not good for the vast population of pussies


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21068374 - 01/04/15 11:15 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

simple solution to these problems. lower the pay of politicians to that of middle class, or even step it up a notch a pay them shit. only the truly humble will remain and our society will be back on track. the key is to always keep the politician's pay low no matter what. but then again look at what happened to the constitution.. it was supposed to remain that way but peeps decided to completely ignore it over time..


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: zZZz]
    #21068403 - 01/04/15 11:23 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

zZZz said:
simple solution to these problems. lower the pay of politicians to that of middle class, or even step it up a notch a pay them shit. only the truly humble will remain and our society will be back on track. the key is to always keep the politician's pay low no matter what. but then again look at what happened to the constitution.. it was supposed to remain that way but peeps decided to completely ignore it over time..



Only the very rich will be on track


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21068429 - 01/04/15 11:27 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

simple solution, tax the shit out of em. if they are getting getting filthy rich on your ground it's only fair that they pay up a healthy sum.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: zZZz]
    #21068494 - 01/04/15 11:42 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

zZZz said:
simple solution, tax the shit out of em. if they are getting getting filthy rich on your ground it's only fair that they pay up a healthy sum.




Tax the shit out of who?


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21068709 - 01/05/15 12:31 AM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

shroom_sensai said:
it doesnt matter who you vote for theyre all controlled by lobbies, who are controlled by corporations.



You are dead wrong.  Corporations do not get to vote.



He's right though.  Congress usually does what the corporations want; not what the voters want.  Just look at CRomnibus.  Who wanted that besides Wall St?


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21070145 - 01/05/15 10:40 AM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

shroom_sensai said:
it doesnt matter who you vote for theyre all controlled by lobbies, who are controlled by corporations.



You are dead wrong.  Corporations do not get to vote.



He's right though.  Congress usually does what the corporations want; not what the voters want.  Just look at CRomnibus.  Who wanted that besides Wall St?




What makes you think that made Wall Street happy?


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InvisiblezZZz
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21070168 - 01/05/15 10:44 AM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Just watch the movie wolf of Wall Street. Then you'll know why.


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: zZZz]
    #21070211 - 01/05/15 10:56 AM (6 years, 9 months ago)

:lolsy:What does that have to do with the latest spending bill and what kind of drooling moron would think that anything that comes out of Hollyweird is in any way at all reality?  Boy oh boy if you get your world view from movies and television it is no wonder you have some the ideas you do.


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21070342 - 01/05/15 11:29 AM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
What makes you think that made Wall Street happy?



Just about every article written on the subject.


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21070365 - 01/05/15 11:40 AM (6 years, 9 months ago)

:lolsy:Look at the lineup on that page

Bernie Sanders
Think Progress
zerohedge says nothing about whether it was good for Wall Street
Huffington Post
Salon
Sanders again
Naked Capitalism
Daily Kos
Common Cause
Fiscal Times, which also says nothing about whether Wall Street is happy with Cromnibus.

That's the entire first page of the search results you linked.  No wonder you have no clue.


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21070531 - 01/05/15 12:20 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Why don't you read one of those articles and learn why this was a Wall Street bill?  Or move ahead to the conservative articles on the same topic?

You are very wrong about Zero Hedge saying nothing about whether this was good or bad for Wall Street.  That article said this:

Quote:

the biggest contention in the Cromnibus, or as it is also known, the Cronybus, was the swaps push-out provision - drafted by Citigroup - which, as we detailed yesterday, could put American taxpayers on the hook for up to $303 trillion in gross notional derivatives as a result of "siloing" swaps, and their associated risks, in FDIC-insured operating companies.




That same article also shows that the people who voted for it on BOTH sides were the same people bought out by Wall Street:



--------------------
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21070798 - 01/05/15 01:18 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Why don't you read one of those articles and learn why this was a Wall Street bill?  Or move ahead to the conservative articles on the same topic?

You are very wrong about Zero Hedge saying nothing about whether this was good or bad for Wall Street.  That article said this:

Quote:

the biggest contention in the Cromnibus, or as it is also known, the Cronybus, was the swaps push-out provision - drafted by Citigroup - which, as we detailed yesterday, could put American taxpayers on the hook for up to $303 trillion in gross notional derivatives as a result of "siloing" swaps, and their associated risks, in FDIC-insured operating companies.







Which is completely fictitious nonsense
Quote:



That same article also shows that the people who voted for it on BOTH sides were the same people bought out by Wall Street:






Which does nothing to establish your point.


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21070966 - 01/05/15 02:02 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Which is completely fictitious nonsense



It's what all the articles say.  I don't know why you think it's 'fictitious'.

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Which does nothing to establish your point.



If you think Wall Street donors don't expect anything in return for their contributions, you are hopelessly naïve.


--------------------
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21071126 - 01/05/15 02:37 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Which is completely fictitious nonsense



It's what all the articles say.  I don't know why you think it's 'fictitious'.

303 trillion dollars of federal liability.  :lolsy:
Quote:



Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Which does nothing to establish your point.



If you think Wall Street donors don't expect anything in return for their contributions, you are hopelessly naïve.




If there is a pay for play scheme how come they never get busted?  How come Wall Street contributes to both sides of an election most of the time?


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21071261 - 01/05/15 03:11 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
303 trillion dollars of federal liability.  :lolsy:



I guess you're not familiar with the derivatives market?  There was a link explaining this in the zero hedge article.

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
If there is a pay for play scheme how come they never get busted?  How come Wall Street contributes to both sides of an election most of the time?



Pay for play is not illegal to my knowledge.  And both sides are guilty of cronyism, duh.


--------------------
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21071475 - 01/05/15 04:15 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
303 trillion dollars of federal liability.  :lolsy:



I guess you're not familiar with the derivatives market?  There was a link explaining this in the zero hedge article.




The total GDP is only $17T  Those particular zerohedge contributors are alarmist lunatics.
Quote:



Quote:

zappaisgod said:
If there is a pay for play scheme how come they never get busted?  How come Wall Street contributes to both sides of an election most of the time?



Pay for play is not illegal to my knowledge.  And both sides are guilty of cronyism, duh.




Pay for play most certainly is illegal.  That has nothing to do with cronyism.  You are just all over the place with non sequiturs today.


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21072323 - 01/05/15 07:26 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I guess you're not familiar with the derivatives market?  There was a link explaining this in the zero hedge article.



The total GDP is only $17T  Those particular zerohedge contributors are alarmist lunatics.



Confirmed - you're NOT familiar with the derivatives market.

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Pay for play most certainly is illegal.  That has nothing to do with cronyism.  You are just all over the place with non sequiturs today.



So if I'm a large corporation, say Chevron, and I give $2.5 million to the Chevron Policy Government & Public Affairs Super PAC to make campaign contributions so that Chevron wins billions in Government contracts, you're saying that's illegal???

Such pay to play has everything to do with cronyism.


--------------------
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21072335 - 01/05/15 07:28 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

It's illegal for PACs to make million dollar campaign contributions.


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21072441 - 01/05/15 07:45 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
303 trillion dollars of federal liability.  :lolsy:



I guess you're not familiar with the derivatives market?  There was a link explaining this in the zero hedge article.




The author of the piece, the psedonymous Tyler Durden, twice cites himself as the authority.  This isn't the first time I've come across this guy and he is pretty much a completely full of shit alarmist whackjob.  He won't even put his own name on his column.  Yeah, I'll accept him as an authourity


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Enlil]
    #21072621 - 01/05/15 08:14 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
It's illegal for PACs to make million dollar campaign contributions.



I'm sure you've got me on a technicality.  Why don't you explain Chevron's $2.5 million Republican Super PAC contribution.


--------------------
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21072629 - 01/05/15 08:15 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
The author of the piece, the psedonymous Tyler Durden, twice cites himself as the authority.  This isn't the first time I've come across this guy and he is pretty much a completely full of shit alarmist whackjob.  He won't even put his own name on his column.  Yeah, I'll accept him as an authourity



Then read up on it from someone else.  Do you want me to help?


--------------------
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21072642 - 01/05/15 08:17 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
It's illegal for PACs to make million dollar campaign contributions.



I'm sure you've got me on a technicality.  Why don't you explain Chevron's $2.5 million Republican Super PAC contribution.



They can contribute to PACs, sure, but not to campaigns.


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21072658 - 01/05/15 08:21 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
The author of the piece, the psedonymous Tyler Durden, twice cites himself as the authority.  This isn't the first time I've come across this guy and he is pretty much a completely full of shit alarmist whackjob.  He won't even put his own name on his column.  Yeah, I'll accept him as an authourity



Then read up on it from someone else.  Do you want me to help?




Yes please.  Before you go to the trouble how much was the taxpayer on the hook for in the TARP so-called bailout?


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21072663 - 01/05/15 08:22 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
It's illegal for PACs to make million dollar campaign contributions.



I'm sure you've got me on a technicality.  Why don't you explain Chevron's $2.5 million Republican Super PAC contribution.




What Republican Super PAC was that?


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21074807 - 01/06/15 01:34 AM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Before you go to the trouble how much was the taxpayer on the hook for in the TARP so-called bailout?



Initially it was $700 billion, though we got most of it back thanks to TARP and the FED.  One of the big reasons for the bailout was to cover derivatives losses.

There are now approximately $303 trillion dollars in derivatives on the US market.  Since Glass Steagal was repealed, banks have now gotten into the derivatives market.  If they lose their money on derivatives, they'll take everyone, including Main St, down with them, unless there is another Government bailout to cover the losses.


--------------------
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21074830 - 01/06/15 01:36 AM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
It's illegal for PACs to make million dollar campaign contributions.



I'm sure you've got me on a technicality.  Why don't you explain Chevron's $2.5 million Republican Super PAC contribution.




What Republican Super PAC was that?



The Congressional Leadership Fund.


--------------------
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21076170 - 01/06/15 11:51 AM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Before you go to the trouble how much was the taxpayer on the hook for in the TARP so-called bailout?



Initially it was $700 billion, though we got most of it back thanks to TARP and the FED.  One of the big reasons for the bailout was to cover derivatives losses.




Nope.  We got all of it back from the banks and then some and no losses were covered by the taxpayer.  The auto unions, however, cost the taxpayer quite a bit.  Wall Street lost money on bank bailouts and the government made money.  Not only that but I don't think there was ever any money actually moved.
Quote:



There are now approximately $303 trillion dollars in derivatives on the US market.  Since Glass Steagal was repealed, banks have now gotten into the derivatives market.  If they lose their money on derivatives, they'll take everyone, including Main St, down with them, unless there is another Government bailout to cover the losses.




Right.  You aren't scared enough

http://investmentwatchblog.com/global-derivatives-market-has-lost-a-staggering-300-trillion-441-trillion-has-been-bet-on-the-movement-of-interest-rates-the-total-derivative-exposure-is-1-5-quadrillion-and-climbing/

Quote:

GLOBAL Derivatives Market Has LOST A STAGGERING $300 TRILLION… $441 TRILLION Has Been Bet On The Movement of Interest Rates… The Total Derivative Exposure Is 1.5 Quadrillion And Climbing!!!





You are an amateur alarmist.  Go big or go home.


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21076482 - 01/06/15 12:57 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
You aren't scared enough

http://investmentwatchblog.com/global-derivatives-market-has-lost-a-staggering-300-trillion-441-trillion-has-been-bet-on-the-movement-of-interest-rates-the-total-derivative-exposure-is-1-5-quadrillion-and-climbing/

Quote:

$441 TRILLION Has Been Bet On The Movement of Interest Rates… The Total Derivative Exposure Is 1.5 Quadrillion And Climbing!!!





You are an amateur alarmist.  Go big or go home.



That's part of the global total.  Some of that was already counted in the US total.


--------------------
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21076808 - 01/06/15 02:05 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

:flowstone:


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21077086 - 01/06/15 03:20 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Let me ask you this:  Do you believe there are roughly $600+ trillion in derivatives on the market right now?


--------------------
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21077411 - 01/06/15 04:25 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

World GDP is only around 80T

So now it is 600T.  Before it was 300T.  Some other nutcase says it is 1.5 quadrillion.


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21077448 - 01/06/15 04:35 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

You still don't get derivatives.

As a made up example (real prices may vary), I can buy a derivative for $100 that will pay me $2000 if interest rates go above a certain level by a certain time.  Insurance companies (now banks) sell these derivatives because they're pretty sure that won't happen, and they make a lot of money for selling them (and get paid lots of commission/bonuses).  If it does happen, they'll have already pocketed hefty bonuses for selling them, but they won't have enough to cover their losses (unregulated derivatives don't have to be backed with collateral), they'll just go bankrupt and take everyone else down with them that they do business with.  You're right in that THAT KIND OF MONEY DOESN'T EXIST.


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Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (01/06/15 04:43 PM)


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21077479 - 01/06/15 04:42 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

And a meteor could land on your head and little green men walk out of it and eat your eardrums.


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21077550 - 01/06/15 04:57 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
And a meteor could land on your head and little green men walk out of it and eat your eardrums.



That's what AIG said when they sold mortgage derivatives.


--------------------
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21077589 - 01/06/15 05:05 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
And a meteor could land on your head and little green men walk out of it and eat your eardrums.



That's what AIG said when they sold mortgage derivatives.




Tell me what is going on with AIG today?


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21078525 - 01/06/15 08:16 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

On occasion fal is right about something. A stopped clock and all that. The derivatives market does exist and huge amounts of money are involved. It may be a little bit over zap's head and that of the majority of the public but its a real thing and can cause real problems. The media of course ignores it for the most part. We are told that gay marriage is the main thing we should focus on, that and celebrity gossip, and the latest pronouncements from the race hustlers.


--------------------
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21078597 - 01/06/15 08:26 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

I am well aware that you also are not well in this regard.  Did you know that you can buy a Wall Street Journal at almost any news stand in the country and they will have thousands and thousand of words in them and very few will be about celebrities?  True story bro.  Step away from the whackjob websites.


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21078792 - 01/06/15 08:49 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Yes, the mass media is obsessed with gay marriage and the other things I mentioned. I did not say the wsj.

Ignorance is nothing to be ashamed of, zap. Simply get some education about derivatives and you won't make a fool of yourself in front of fal and others.


--------------------
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21078914 - 01/06/15 09:11 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Yes, the mass media is obsessed with gay marriage and the other things I mentioned. I did not say the wsj.

Ignorance is nothing to be ashamed of, zap. Simply get some education about derivatives and you won't make a fool of yourself in front of fal and others.




I don't indulge in the mass media or whackjob websites.  Perhaps you could direct me to somebody in any serious capacity who backs up your whackjob paranoid alarmist delusion?

You have to be a drooling lunatic to think that there is even 600 trillion dollars to expose.  Or 300 trillion.  Lets say the whole derivatives market goes belly up?  Then what?  What will happen?  Will there be less bread, less oil?  Fewer houses?

Spare me your nutcase theories.


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21078966 - 01/06/15 09:20 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

> Lets say the whole derivatives market goes belly up?  Then what?  What will happen?  Will there be less bread, less oil?  Fewer houses?

Zappa, you are embarrassing yourself needlessly with your aggressive wrong headedness. If the issuers of the derivatives can't cover losses, they will go under. This in most cases will be major banks and large brokerage houses. There was legislation passed recently with little discussion which will put the govt on the hook for much of the loss should it occur. This was allowed to get by because much of the public is ignorant of those things and the media is not interested in educating them. You and the rest of the sheep allowed it to happen.

So yes, there will be severe repercussions if the derivatives market goes belly up. This could happen if the stock market tanks or a number of events occur. To get you started, here is a link with basic info. Reading it is not as much fun as drinking until you are wall eyed but it would make you less ignorant. Not smart, but less ignorant.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derivative_(finance)


--------------------
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21078980 - 01/06/15 09:24 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

However, these are "notional" values, and some economists say that this value greatly exaggerates the market value and the true credit risk faced by the parties involved. For example, in 2010, while the aggregate of OTC derivatives exceeded $600 trillion, the value of the market was estimated much lower, at $21 trillion. The credit risk equivalent of the derivative contracts was estimated at $3.3 trillion




Just shut up


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21079530 - 01/06/15 10:22 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
And a meteor could land on your head and little green men walk out of it and eat your eardrums.



That's what AIG said when they sold mortgage derivatives.




Tell me what is going on with AIG today?



:whatwhatwhat:

Here's what went on with AIG:

AIG sold mortgage derivatives to anyone that would buy them, selling WAY more than they could possibly afford to pay if mortgages went bad.  Then mortgages went bad and AIG was going bankrupt.  But that meant everyone that did business with AIG would lose their money, and also go bankrupt, which meant that other companies that dealt with those companies would go bankrupt, and so on.

The Government, realizing that this would cause a Great Depression, risked $180 billion in taxpayer money hoping to stop this chain reaction, and took an 80% stake in AIG in the largest government bailout of a private company in U.S. history.

Over time, AIG sold off it's valuable subsidiaries and was able to pay the Government back.  Crisis somewhat averted thanks to the US Government.

So you are now supporting Government bailouts of failed private companies?


--------------------
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21079561 - 01/06/15 10:24 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Braying your ignorance again? Tsk tsk. Read the info, slap your forehead saying "doh!" and stop making dumb utterances and quoting morons. A fool "estimating" the credit risk to be $3T does not make it so. You won't even name him.

Read fal's post to grasp an inkling of the problem.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21079729 - 01/06/15 10:47 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

However, these are "notional" values, and some economists say that this value greatly exaggerates the market value and the true credit risk faced by the parties involved. For example, in 2010, while the aggregate of OTC derivatives exceeded $600 trillion, the value of the market was estimated much lower, at $21 trillion.



Just shut up



No, you shut up.  Do you even know what you just posted?

The $21 trillion is the market value of derivatives TODAY.  In the future, that could be WAY more, over $600 trillion if the underlying assets, like mortgages, go bad again.


--------------------
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21079849 - 01/06/15 11:08 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
On occasion fal is right about something.

Read fal's post to grasp an inkling of the problem.



By the way, thank you.  :mushroom2:


--------------------
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21079921 - 01/06/15 11:16 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
And a meteor could land on your head and little green men walk out of it and eat your eardrums.



That's what AIG said when they sold mortgage derivatives.




Tell me what is going on with AIG today?



:whatwhatwhat:

Here's what went on with AIG:

AIG sold mortgage derivatives to anyone that would buy them, selling WAY more than they could possibly afford to pay if mortgages went bad.  Then mortgages went bad and AIG was going bankrupt.  But that meant everyone that did business with AIG would lose their money, and also go bankrupt, which meant that other companies that dealt with those companies would go bankrupt, and so on.

The Government, realizing that this would cause a Great Depression, risked $180 billion in taxpayer money hoping to stop this chain reaction, and took an 80% stake in AIG in the largest government bailout of a private company in U.S. history.

Over time, AIG sold off it's valuable subsidiaries and was able to pay the Government back.  Crisis somewhat averted thanks to the US Government.

So you are now supporting Government bailouts of failed private companies?




I wish it was against the law for the government to bail out failing companies. If government says its against the law to monopolize, why should they be allowed to bail out companies that failed because they couldn't balance a spread sheet? I can't think of a bigger monopoly then selling mortgage loan security funds and failing to be able to pay out on defaults. Especially when the "risk" is $100 billion.

If I own a car insurance company and 200 people wreck their cars and I can't pay all the claims and I go bankrupt, do I really deserve a bail out?


--------------------
The point to meditating is to feel the same when you are meditation as when you aren't. To be balanced inside and out. Difficult to do when being aware of breath and sensation. However, not impossible. Feeling ok about yourself at all times seems to be a great difficult skill to master. The concept so simple a snail could understand it. To practice it some of the greatest Albert Einstein type minds couldn't master it.

It's like the trick to human problems is to be even more human. Not less human but as human as possible, only understanding human nature.

Understanding subtleties is hard. What is subtle? Subtle is powerful. Atoms are subtle. Atoms make up everything we are. Understanding subtleties is one of the hardest parts of life.


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21079960 - 01/06/15 11:19 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

However, these are "notional" values, and some economists say that this value greatly exaggerates the market value and the true credit risk faced by the parties involved. For example, in 2010, while the aggregate of OTC derivatives exceeded $600 trillion, the value of the market was estimated much lower, at $21 trillion.



Just shut up



No, you shut up.  Do you even know what you just posted?

The $21 trillion is the market value of derivatives TODAY.  In the future, that could be WAY more, over $600 trillion if the underlying assets, like mortgages, go bad again.




He's been sort of melty lately. He just made a 10 page thread and complained about banned, and Rose told him "insulting people is against the rules and is a bannable offense" 45 times in the thread.

Of course, I'm sure "shut up" is appropriate


--------------------
The point to meditating is to feel the same when you are meditation as when you aren't. To be balanced inside and out. Difficult to do when being aware of breath and sensation. However, not impossible. Feeling ok about yourself at all times seems to be a great difficult skill to master. The concept so simple a snail could understand it. To practice it some of the greatest Albert Einstein type minds couldn't master it.

It's like the trick to human problems is to be even more human. Not less human but as human as possible, only understanding human nature.

Understanding subtleties is hard. What is subtle? Subtle is powerful. Atoms are subtle. Atoms make up everything we are. Understanding subtleties is one of the hardest parts of life.


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: imachavel]
    #21080020 - 01/06/15 11:26 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

imachavel said:
I wish it was against the law for the government to bail out failing companies.

If I own a car insurance company and 200 people wreck their cars and I can't pay all the claims and I go bankrupt, do I really deserve a bail out?



The problem is that in this case, the Government HAD to bail out AIG to prevent a massive chain of bankruptcies.  I think it should be illegal for a company to sell more derivatives than they can cover losses on, or for a company to become "too big to fail".  :shrug:


--------------------
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #21080063 - 01/06/15 11:36 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

oh man im loving reading this thread, way to put zappa in his place!


--------------------
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: shroom_sensai] * 1
    #21080070 - 01/06/15 11:38 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

arguing with him is like arguing with a brick wall that has the ability to make fun of you endlessly. no wonder hes the fifth most ignored member on here.


--------------------
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: shroom_sensai] * 1
    #21081572 - 01/07/15 11:21 AM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Zappa got banned? I thought he was immune? Anyway, it gives him a chance to avoid the embarrassment of being proven wrong once again.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21081807 - 01/07/15 12:29 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

imachavel said:
I wish it was against the law for the government to bail out failing companies.

If I own a car insurance company and 200 people wreck their cars and I can't pay all the claims and I go bankrupt, do I really deserve a bail out?



The problem is that in this case, the Government HAD to bail out AIG to prevent a massive chain of bankruptcies.  I think it should be illegal for a company to sell more derivatives than they can cover losses on, or for a company to become "too big to fail".  :shrug:




That's what I meant. Why should the government bail out a company that shouldn't exist?


--------------------
The point to meditating is to feel the same when you are meditation as when you aren't. To be balanced inside and out. Difficult to do when being aware of breath and sensation. However, not impossible. Feeling ok about yourself at all times seems to be a great difficult skill to master. The concept so simple a snail could understand it. To practice it some of the greatest Albert Einstein type minds couldn't master it.

It's like the trick to human problems is to be even more human. Not less human but as human as possible, only understanding human nature.

Understanding subtleties is hard. What is subtle? Subtle is powerful. Atoms are subtle. Atoms make up everything we are. Understanding subtleties is one of the hardest parts of life.


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: imachavel]
    #21082687 - 01/07/15 04:46 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

imachavel said:
Why should the government bail out a company that shouldn't exist?



Exactly.  :thumbup:


--------------------
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: imachavel]
    #21082766 - 01/07/15 05:05 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

imachavel said:
Why should the government bail out a company people that shouldn't exist?




Fixed that for you.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #21082841 - 01/07/15 05:23 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

imachavel said:
Why should the government bail out a company people that shouldn't exist?




Fixed that for you.



That too.  :thumbup:

Right after the Government bailout, AIG execs received amazing bonuses.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21082854 - 01/07/15 05:26 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
And a meteor could land on your head and little green men walk out of it and eat your eardrums.



That's what AIG said when they sold mortgage derivatives.




Tell me what is going on with AIG today?



:whatwhatwhat:

Here's what went on with AIG:

AIG sold mortgage derivatives to anyone that would buy them, selling WAY more than they could possibly afford to pay if mortgages went bad.  Then mortgages went bad and AIG was going bankrupt.  But that meant everyone that did business with AIG would lose their money, and also go bankrupt, which meant that other companies that dealt with those companies would go bankrupt, and so on.

The Government, realizing that this would cause a Great Depression, risked $180 billion in taxpayer money hoping to stop this chain reaction, and took an 80% stake in AIG in the largest government bailout of a private company in U.S. history.

Over time, AIG sold off it's valuable subsidiaries and was able to pay the Government back.  Crisis somewhat averted thanks to the US Government.

So you are now supporting Government bailouts of failed private companies?



So you don't know. 

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/389994/5-reasons-govt-might-lose-aig-lawsuit-tim-cavanaugh

Try to keep up, will ya.  The government made a fortune on AIG.


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21082943 - 01/07/15 05:46 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

imachavel said:
Why should the government bail out a company people that shouldn't exist?




Fixed that for you.



That too.  :thumbup:

Right after the Government bailout, AIG execs received amazing bonuses.




Them too, but also societal leeches.

I not in favor of social or business welfare.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21084230 - 01/07/15 10:17 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Anyway, Fal, I wouldn't worry about tons of derivatives or debt or anything else.  After all if that happens...

UNCLE SAM TO THE RESCUE!!! :smirk:


The government makes the rules.  The companies play the game.  It's simple.  Even in the case where the companies don't play by the rules, I don't notice the government sending the executives of cheating companies into orange jump suits and sending them up to the Butt-Fuck Hostel and Resort.

So let me ask you:  Say the government said that you could gamble away as much money as you wanted in Las vegas, and they would cover your loss if you didn't win.  Now, I'm sure you are so morally righteous that you would sneer in indignation and refuse to take the offer.

The problem is the government.  they are the ones who make the rules.  it doesn't matter what the corporations do.  The only solution is to fight back against the government.  THEY NEED TO BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE AND THE PEOPLE AIN'T MAKING IT.


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: starfire_xes]
    #21086540 - 01/08/15 12:16 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Star, that is true, the govt is a major problem. When you come down to it bribery is a major problem because they would be a lot more responsible if those "campaign contributions" didn't keep coming in all nice and legal.

The govt can't bail out everything and everyone even if it wants to. Our debt is unpayable now and people are starting to notice. The only thing keeping the dollar from doing a swan dive right now is that other currencies are doing just as bad or worse and don't have the big rep the dollar has.

Derivatives are like bets in a casino. Not all $600T is going to be lost at once. Its like the casino has that much going on in all their games over a period of time. Not all will be bet against the house, many bets go either way, some bet an index will go up, some bet it will go down. What makes the house nervous is when there is an imbalance. Even 1% imbalance means 6T could be owed by the house if disaster strikes. That is more than enough to bankrupt all the banks and the govt too. Who is going to loan us that kind of money? No one. What will happen if we just print it up? Don't ask. Even $1T could set off a chain reaction dominoes type effect, it does not have to be much more than that.

We are rolling them bones at the base of a volcano while ignoring the rumblings, smoke and ash


--------------------
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21099759 - 01/11/15 03:24 AM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
So you are now supporting Government bailouts of failed private companies?



So you don't know. 

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/389994/5-reasons-govt-might-lose-aig-lawsuit-tim-cavanaugh

Try to keep up, will ya.  The government made a fortune on AIG.



Of course I know about that as I already summarized it for you:

Over time, AIG sold off it's valuable subsidiaries and was able to pay the Government back.

As I asked before:

So you are now supporting Government bailouts of failed private companies?

You seem to be very impressed with how good a job the Government did at running AIG.  :shrug:


--------------------
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: starfire_xes]
    #21099762 - 01/11/15 03:26 AM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

starfire_xes said:
Anyway, Fal, I wouldn't worry about tons of derivatives or debt or anything else.  After all if that happens...

UNCLE SAM TO THE RESCUE!!! :smirk:



My point exactly, which I'm arguing against.  Zap is the one defending the Government bailouts of too big to fail companies.  :shrug:


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21101544 - 01/11/15 02:11 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

The government caused the failure with their regulations requiring banks to lend to bums.  When the bums defaulted, as was inevitable, the industry was fucked.  If you don't tell people they have to lend to scumbags you won't have to bail them out.  The moral culpability lies with the government and the bums who defaulted.

In terms of the auto companies it wasn't the government that caused t\heir problems.  It was the unions.  The government should not have interfered with the proper procedure for a lawful bankruptcy action.  You might want know, bankruptcy does not necessarily mean the end of a company.  The auto company bailouts cost the taxpayers billions and were actually bailouts for greedy overpaid union jackoffs.


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21104449 - 01/11/15 11:47 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
The government caused the failure with their regulations requiring banks to lend to bums...  If you don't tell people they have to lend to scumbags you won't have to bail them out.  The moral culpability lies with the government and the bums who defaulted.



:facepalm3:  I don't know how many times you're willing to fall on your face on that topic.

As you know, ONLY 6% of subprime loans were CRA loans.  All the other subprime loans were voluntary loans by the banks who resold them as mortgage backed securities because they knew they were too risky to hang onto.  The Government didn't force them to make those loans nor to resell them.  If you want to blame the Government it should be for not regulating the loans.

But that's not even the worst of it.  The worst of it was when Wall St started betting the loans would fail and purchased derivatives that would pay off hugely once the loans failed.

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
In terms of the auto companies it wasn't the government that caused t\heir problems.  It was the unions.  The government should not have interfered with the proper procedure for a lawful bankruptcy action.  You might want know, bankruptcy does not necessarily mean the end of a company.  The auto company bailouts cost the taxpayers billions and were actually bailouts for greedy overpaid union jackoffs.



Irrelevant to the topic of derivatives.  Regardless, the Government conservatively saved over 1 million US jobs by bailing out GM.  It's not the Government's job to make a profit from the private sector, though you seem to think they should.


--------------------
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Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (01/12/15 12:57 AM)


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21106830 - 01/12/15 12:17 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
The government caused the failure with their regulations requiring banks to lend to bums...  If you don't tell people they have to lend to scumbags you won't have to bail them out.  The moral culpability lies with the government and the bums who defaulted.



:facepalm3:  I don't know how many times you're willing to fall on your face on that topic.

As you know, ONLY 6% of subprime loans were CRA loans.  All the other subprime loans were voluntary loans by the banks who resold them as mortgage backed securities because they knew they were too risky to hang onto.  The Government didn't force them to make those loans nor to resell them.  If you want to blame the Government it should be for not regulating the loans.




They did regulate them by encouraging them.
Quote:



But that's not even the worst of it.  The worst of it was when Wall St started betting the loans would fail and purchased derivatives that would pay off hugely once the loans failed.




That is what they are supposed to do.  Hedge the bad investments that were forced upon them.  Do you know who was the biggest buyer of that shit paper?  The government.
Quote:

Quote:



Quote:

zappaisgod said:
In terms of the auto companies it wasn't the government that caused t\heir problems.  It was the unions.  The government should not have interfered with the proper procedure for a lawful bankruptcy action.  You might want know, bankruptcy does not necessarily mean the end of a company.  The auto company bailouts cost the taxpayers billions and were actually bailouts for greedy overpaid union jackoffs.



Irrelevant to the topic of derivatives.  Regardless, the Government conservatively saved over 1 million US jobs by bailing out GM.  It's not the Government's job to make a profit from the private sector, though you seem to think they should.




I think they should stay out of it.  And by that I mean I don't think they should be telling banks who to lend to and I don't think they should be buying the loans.

As to the auto unin bailouts not even the idiot in chief thinks  a million jobs were saved and there is no evidence that the companies would have folded under bankruptcy or that if they did the workers would not ahave just been absorbed by other companies who would ramp up production to meet the lost production at GM and Chrysler.

The auto bailouts were one thing and one thing only.  A bailout for unions.  The same unions that destroyed the companies in the first place.


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21107554 - 01/12/15 02:48 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

The governments bad m'kay...

I agree with Falcon on this one.


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: shroom_sensai]
    #21107604 - 01/12/15 02:58 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Many of us agree the govt is bad and imo, bribery is the main reason. Zap is like those guys you see on a street corner ranting about something or other.


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21108481 - 01/12/15 05:45 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

There is no bribery and Fal does not agree that government is bad.  He wants more more more


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21108625 - 01/12/15 06:16 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

>There is no bribery

:flowstone: :flowstone: :flowstone:


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21108931 - 01/12/15 07:16 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Please list the bribery convictions.

You do not get to make up your own definition of legal terms.


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21109229 - 01/12/15 08:18 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

>Please list the bribery convictions.

Do you know how to use google? I'm not your stepen fetchit servant.

>You do not get to make up your own definition of legal terms.

Play for pay is bribery pure and simple. You are one of the few who can't seem to grasp that concept. Likewise the govt "steals" many things from us. You have said so yourself. Where are the convictions for that?


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21110941 - 01/13/15 01:01 AM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
ONLY 6% of subprime loans were CRA loans.  All the other subprime loans were voluntary loans by the banks who resold them as mortgage backed securities because they knew they were too risky to hang onto.  The Government didn't force them to make those loans nor to resell them.  If you want to blame the Government it should be for not regulating the loans.



They did regulate them by encouraging them.



Even if we blame the Government for all CRA loan failures, that was such an insignificant fraction of the overall mortgage crisis that it wouldn't have had any impact on the economy.

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
The worst of it was when Wall St started betting the loans would fail and purchased derivatives that would pay off hugely once the loans failed.



That is what they are supposed to do.  Hedge the bad investments that were forced upon them.



Let them hedge the CRA loans.  I don't care.  The vast majority of derivatives were purchased by entities that didn't even hold an underlying security, which is why the derivatives market is so huge.

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Do you know who was the biggest buyer of that shit paper?  The government.



I'd really like for you to show me that the Government was purchasing derivatives.  :popcorn:


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21113036 - 01/13/15 01:05 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

The government bought the mortgages themselves.  I do not give a shit about derivatives.  The base investments were the problem, not any of the archana surrounding them.  A simple fact is that if the assholes did not default there would be no problem and the government encouraged default by buying the loans and suing banks to lend to losers.

If the people who borrowed money did what they were supposed to do, i.e. repay their loans, there would never have been a problem at all.  Derivatives, CDSs, hedges.  No problem.  Shitbags borrowing money they can't repay?  100% problem


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21114396 - 01/13/15 03:44 PM (6 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
The government bought the mortgages themselves.  I do not give a shit about derivatives.




Whether you "give a shit" about the derivatives or not, THAT'S what crashed the economy, THAT'S what CRomnibus will put taxpayers on the hook for, and THAT'S what you've been defending this whole fucking thread.  Do you support CRomnibus, or don't you?

By the way. the Government bought the mortgages so the banks could lend more money, not because they thought it would be profitable.

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
If the people who borrowed money did what they were supposed to do, i.e. repay their loans, there would never have been a problem at all.  Derivatives, CDSs, hedges.  No problem.  Shitbags borrowing money they can't repay?  100% problem



Banks changing their lending standards was even more of a problem.  People who couldn't afford loans were talked into larger loans by banks so the banks could make a higher commission and then sell the loans to Main Street.  THAT was the underlying problem.


--------------------
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #21114417 - 01/13/15 03:45 PM (6 years, 8 months ago)

zappa wrote
> I do not give a shit about derivatives.

This is his way of saying "you are right"


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21114593 - 01/13/15 04:02 PM (6 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
zappa wrote
> I do not give a shit about derivatives.

This is his way of saying "you are right"



No kidding.  This whole discussion has been about derivatives, which he clearly didn't understand, and now he's trying to say he doesn't care?  :wtf:


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21120265 - 01/14/15 02:22 PM (6 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
The government bought the mortgages themselves.  I do not give a shit about derivatives.




Whether you "give a shit" about the derivatives or not, THAT'S what crashed the economy, THAT'S what CRomnibus will put taxpayers on the hook for, and THAT'S what you've been defending this whole fucking thread.  Do you support CRomnibus, or don't you?

By the way. the Government bought the mortgages so the banks could lend more money, not because they thought it would be profitable.




derivatives did not collapse the economy.  Bums not repaying their loans did.
Quote:



Quote:

zappaisgod said:
If the people who borrowed money did what they were supposed to do, i.e. repay their loans, there would never have been a problem at all.  Derivatives, CDSs, hedges.  No problem.  Shitbags borrowing money they can't repay?  100% problem



Banks changing their lending standards was even more of a problem.  People who couldn't afford loans were talked into larger loans by banks so the banks could make a higher commission and then sell the loans to Main Street.  THAT was the underlying problem.




Talked into?  Are they not adults?  Should they be kept in sheltered workshops because they are too stupid to make their own decisions?  Fucking spare me.


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21120839 - 01/14/15 04:56 PM (6 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Whether you "give a shit" about the derivatives or not, THAT'S what crashed the economy, THAT'S what CRomnibus will put taxpayers on the hook for, and THAT'S what you've been defending this whole fucking thread.  Do you support CRomnibus, or don't you?




derivatives did not collapse the economy.  Bums not repaying their loans did.



The AIG bailout was to cover derivatives losses.  If they didn't deal in derivatives, no bailout would have been required.


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21120843 - 01/14/15 04:57 PM (6 years, 8 months ago)

If the bums didn't default on the loans no bailout necessary


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21121005 - 01/14/15 05:39 PM (6 years, 8 months ago)

And if the banks hadn't made all the subprime non-CRA loans, no bailout necessary.  :flowstone:


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21121035 - 01/14/15 05:44 PM (6 years, 8 months ago)

If somebody borrows money and doesn't pay it back who is the asshole?  The lender or the borrower?  If the government encourages lending money to losers and then buys the paper who is the asshole?


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21121238 - 01/14/15 06:28 PM (6 years, 8 months ago)

If
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
If somebody borrows money and doesn't pay it back who is the asshole?



If a bank loans money to someone it knows will struggle to pay it back, and then sells that loan to someone who doesn't know better in order to get rid of the risk, then the bank is the asshole.


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21121284 - 01/14/15 06:39 PM (6 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
If
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
If somebody borrows money and doesn't pay it back who is the asshole?



If a bank loans money to someone it knows will struggle to pay it back, and then sells that loan to someone who doesn't know better in order to get rid of the risk, then the bank is the asshole.




No.  The defaulter is always the asshole


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21121320 - 01/14/15 06:49 PM (6 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
If
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
If somebody borrows money and doesn't pay it back who is the asshole?



If a bank loans money to someone it knows will struggle to pay it back, and then sells that loan to someone who doesn't know better in order to get rid of the risk, then the bank is the asshole.




:whathesaid:


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21121359 - 01/14/15 06:55 PM (6 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
No.  The defaulter is always the asshole



In your opinion, which matters not.


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21121407 - 01/14/15 07:04 PM (6 years, 8 months ago)

The defaulter is the asshole but the banks did wrong too. Its not like one side is an angel and the other side is the devil.


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21121414 - 01/14/15 07:05 PM (6 years, 8 months ago)

Fair enough.


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21121423 - 01/14/15 07:07 PM (6 years, 8 months ago)

No.  It is always the defaulter who is the asshole.  We are talking about adults here.  The contracts for the loans are in writing.  This isn't some "I wasn't told" bullshit.  Yes you were.  Your signature is on a contract


People who do not honor their contracts are scumbags.  The banks honored their part.


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21121451 - 01/14/15 07:12 PM (6 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
People who do not honor their contracts are scumbags.  The banks honored their part.



You know that's bullshit.  The banks sold their risky loans to Main Street, disguising them with high ratings.


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21121477 - 01/14/15 07:17 PM (6 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
No.  It is always the defaulter who is the asshole.  We are talking about adults here.  The contracts for the loans are in writing.  This isn't some "I wasn't told" bullshit.  Yes you were.  Your signature is on a contract


People who do not honor their contracts are scumbags.  The banks honored their part.



That's pretty much bullshit.  People default for all kinds of reasons that are out of their control.  You're way out of line with your sweeping generalizations.


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21122049 - 01/14/15 09:28 PM (6 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
People who do not honor their contracts are scumbags.  The banks honored their part.



You know that's bullshit.  The banks sold their risky loans to Main Street, disguising them with high ratings.




Main Street?  Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac are Main Street?  Who knew?


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Enlil]
    #21122060 - 01/14/15 09:30 PM (6 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
No.  It is always the defaulter who is the asshole.  We are talking about adults here.  The contracts for the loans are in writing.  This isn't some "I wasn't told" bullshit.  Yes you were.  Your signature is on a contract


People who do not honor their contracts are scumbags.  The banks honored their part.



That's pretty much bullshit.  People default for all kinds of reasons that are out of their control.  You're way out of line with your sweeping generalizations.



I do not care why they default.  Really, I don't give a fuck.  Anybody who borrows money and doesn't pay it back is a scumbag.


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: zappaisgod] * 1
    #21122104 - 01/14/15 09:35 PM (6 years, 8 months ago)

Then you may one day be a scumbag...any of us could be.  Not everything in life is a matter of choice. 

You really have reached the cliché point where you think that your success in life is completely because of the choices you've made and that everyone else could have made the same choices and have what you have.  That's fiction.  In real life, luck plays a major part, and one can make all the right decisions and still end up unable to repay a debt.

That doesn't make them scumbags.


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #21123051 - 01/15/15 01:13 AM (6 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Then you may one day be a scumbag...any of us could be.  Not everything in life is a matter of choice. 

You really have reached the cliché point where you think that your success in life is completely because of the choices you've made and that everyone else could have made the same choices and have what you have.  That's fiction.  In real life, luck plays a major part, and one can make all the right decisions and still end up unable to repay a debt.

That doesn't make them scumbags.




Absolutely right Enlil, life is unpredictable especially if you take out a 30 year mortgage loan. Say you're in 10 years then you break a leg. Go 6 months without work while you heal, and suddenly you're in default. Doesn't sound like a scumbag to me.


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: shroom_sensai]
    #21123940 - 01/15/15 08:29 AM (6 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

shroom_sensai said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
Then you may one day be a scumbag...any of us could be.  Not everything in life is a matter of choice. 

You really have reached the cliché point where you think that your success in life is completely because of the choices you've made and that everyone else could have made the same choices and have what you have.  That's fiction.  In real life, luck plays a major part, and one can make all the right decisions and still end up unable to repay a debt.

That doesn't make them scumbags.




Absolutely right Enlil, life is unpredictable especially if you take out a 30 year mortgage loan. Say you're in 10 years then you break a leg. Go 6 months without work while you heal, and suddenly you're in default. Doesn't sound like a scumbag to me.



A capable adult can and should think into the future about all the possibilities of what could happen. If they think the risk they are taking is too big, they shouldn't have taken it. Ignorance and lack of planning isn't an excuse to borrow money and not pay it back. Imagine you loan someone $1,000. I don't know about you, but if someone doesn't pay that back, for whatever reason, they are an asshole in my opinion.

I seriously doubt anyone in this thread who thinks the defaulter isn't the asshole would be forgiving if they lent someone money and the person didn't pay them back.


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Webster10]
    #21123956 - 01/15/15 08:44 AM (6 years, 8 months ago)

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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Coincidentiaoppositorum]
    #21124311 - 01/15/15 11:14 AM (6 years, 8 months ago)

Most will agree the defaulter is in the wrong. They may not be an asshole, they may have gotten ill, lost their job and got divorced, all in the same year. Or whatever. But the fact remains that they didn't meet their obligations.

The banks in many cases misrepresented mortgages they resold, took borrowers that did not meet minimum underwriting standards and sometimes even helped them falsify applications. Banks are not the good guys here either. They stuck the govt with bad paper or went under holding the bad paper and we bailed them out. Banks hurt the economy more so than the borrowers some of which were crooks but some were given loans they never should have gotten.

To get back to the original theme of the thread, obumble violated the constitution and should be impeached and imprisoned. How long a sentence should he get?


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Webster10] * 1
    #21124346 - 01/15/15 11:27 AM (6 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Webster10 said:
I seriously doubt anyone in this thread who thinks the defaulter isn't the asshole would be forgiving if they lent someone money and the person didn't pay them back.



If I loaned $1000 to a homeless guy in a park who said he'd pay me back, and he never did, sure I'd be upset.  But my acquaintances would tell me that I was an idiot.  Now, if I sold that loan to someone else telling them it's worth $1,000 plus interest, and not telling them a homeless guy owes the money, then I'm an asshole.


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Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (01/15/15 12:01 PM)


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21124427 - 01/15/15 12:04 PM (6 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Most will agree the defaulter is in the wrong.

Banks are not the good guys here either.



So given that both sides were guilty, the next question is how to prevent another mortgage crisis?

The general public isn't getting any smarter, and banks aren't getting any less greedy.  I see only one solution - Government regulation.  Does anyone have any other working solutions that would prevent another crisis?


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21124460 - 01/15/15 12:20 PM (6 years, 8 months ago)

I have lent money and not been paid back, it's a bitch. I still stand by my original statement. Let's see you plan 30 years into the future Webster, hope you don't get cancer.


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21124497 - 01/15/15 12:33 PM (6 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Webster10 said:
I seriously doubt anyone in this thread who thinks the defaulter isn't the asshole would be forgiving if they lent someone money and the person didn't pay them back.



If I loaned $1000 to a homeless guy in a park who said he'd pay me back, and he never did, sure I'd be upset.  But my acquaintances would tell me that I was an idiot.  Now, if I sold that loan to someone else telling them it's worth $1,000 plus interest, and not telling them a homeless guy owes the money, then I'm an asshole.



They had the option to not buy the loan from you, didn't they? They chose to buy it. You're not forcing them to buy it.

EDIT: Also, the homeless man example is quite the exaggeration. In that situation, I'm counting one asshole, the homeless guy. If he had never taken the loan and not paid it back, would there be any loan for you to sell to the unsuspecting customer?


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Edited by Webster10 (01/15/15 12:41 PM)


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: shroom_sensai]
    #21124505 - 01/15/15 12:38 PM (6 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

shroom_sensai said:
I have lent money and not been paid back, it's a bitch. I still stand by my original statement. Let's see you plan 30 years into the future Webster, hope you don't get cancer.



The thing is, I don't know what will happen. That's why I'm not borrowing a ton of money.

Say I borrow $1,000 from you, and plan to pay you back by running a race. A day after, I get hit by a car, I break both my legs. Me breaking my legs wasn't my fault, but not paying back the loan is. By borrowing money, I implied I would be capable of paying it back. I didn't know this for sure, I took the risk, I lost. I am the asshole.


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Enlil]
    #21124601 - 01/15/15 01:08 PM (6 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Then you may one day be a scumbag...any of us could be.  Not everything in life is a matter of choice. 

You really have reached the cliché point where you think that your success in life is completely because of the choices you've made and that everyone else could have made the same choices and have what you have.  That's fiction.  In real life, luck plays a major part, and one can make all the right decisions and still end up unable to repay a debt.

That doesn't make them scumbags.




I am going to say this slowly for the legal class.  Anybody  who    borrows  money    and    doesn't    pay    it    back    is    a    scumbag.

I do not care why you don't pay it back.  You are stealing.  If I lend you money and some misfortune befalls you why should the consequences of that misfortune accrue to me?  I didn't cause your misfortune and in fact did you a favor.  Why should I be punished for being a good guy?


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Webster10]
    #21124611 - 01/15/15 01:10 PM (6 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Webster10 said:
Quote:

shroom_sensai said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
Then you may one day be a scumbag...any of us could be.  Not everything in life is a matter of choice. 

You really have reached the cliché point where you think that your success in life is completely because of the choices you've made and that everyone else could have made the same choices and have what you have.  That's fiction.  In real life, luck plays a major part, and one can make all the right decisions and still end up unable to repay a debt.

That doesn't make them scumbags.




Absolutely right Enlil, life is unpredictable especially if you take out a 30 year mortgage loan. Say you're in 10 years then you break a leg. Go 6 months without work while you heal, and suddenly you're in default. Doesn't sound like a scumbag to me.







I got a radical idea.  SELL THE FUCKING HOUSE!
Quote:


A capable adult can and should think into the future about all the possibilities of what could happen. If they think the risk they are taking is too big, they shouldn't have taken it. Ignorance and lack of planning isn't an excuse to borrow money and not pay it back. Imagine you loan someone $1,000. I don't know about you, but if someone doesn't pay that back, for whatever reason, they are an asshole in my opinion.

I seriously doubt anyone in this thread who thinks the defaulter isn't the asshole would be forgiving if they lent someone money and the person didn't pay them back.




You are quite correct.  All of these bum apologists are not the people getting beat on a bad debt.


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21124623 - 01/15/15 01:14 PM (6 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Most will agree the defaulter is in the wrong. They may not be an asshole, they may have gotten ill, lost their job and got divorced, all in the same year. Or whatever. But the fact remains that they didn't meet their obligations.

The banks in many cases misrepresented mortgages they resold, took borrowers that did not meet minimum underwriting standards and sometimes even helped them falsify applications. Banks are not the good guys here either. They stuck the govt with bad paper or went under holding the bad paper and we bailed them out. Banks hurt the economy more so than the borrowers some of which were crooks but some were given loans they never should have gotten.

To get back to the original theme of the thread, obumble violated the constitution and should be impeached and imprisoned. How long a sentence should he get?



Any fraud the mortgage writers perpetrated on the investors/purchasers of their notes is irrelevant to the fact that the borrowers who defaulted were scumbags.  Then there is the fact that the buyers of said mortgages failed to perform their due diligence.  Let us not forget that Fannie and Freddie are run by professional money people


The simple fact of that matter is that the government engaged in a social engineering experiment that went very wrong


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21124693 - 01/15/15 01:35 PM (6 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
All of these bum apologists are not the people getting beat on a bad debt.



Please...I have over $150k in accounts receivable that I'll never collect.


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21124718 - 01/15/15 01:43 PM (6 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Most will agree the defaulter is in the wrong.

Banks are not the good guys here either.



So given that both sides were guilty, the next question is how to prevent another mortgage crisis?

The general public isn't getting any smarter, and banks aren't getting any less greedy.  I see only one solution - Government regulation.  Does anyone have any other working solutions that would prevent another crisis?



Don't bail them out next time :flowstone:


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Webster10]
    #21124813 - 01/15/15 02:15 PM (6 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Webster10 said:
They had the option to not buy the loan from you, didn't they? They chose to buy it. You're not forcing them to buy it.



Yes, but I misrepresented the loan by saying it was safe, and not that it was to a homeless guy.  There should be at least be a law saying I can't misrepresent what I'm reselling, don't you think?


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Enlil]
    #21124974 - 01/15/15 03:09 PM (6 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
All of these bum apologists are not the people getting beat on a bad debt.



Please...I have over $150k in accounts receivable that I'll never collect.




Don't you feel violated? 

I do not have $150,000 in accounts receivable because I am not an idiot.  The most anybody ever beat me for was less than a grand.  The one time i went to court I kicked ass.  The lawyer got most of the money but the deadbeat got fucked double.


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Webster10]
    #21124979 - 01/15/15 03:10 PM (6 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Webster10 said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Most will agree the defaulter is in the wrong.

Banks are not the good guys here either.



So given that both sides were guilty, the next question is how to prevent another mortgage crisis?

The general public isn't getting any smarter, and banks aren't getting any less greedy.  I see only one solution - Government regulation.  Does anyone have any other working solutions that would prevent another crisis?



Don't bail them out next time :flowstone:



That was mostly an over reaction anyway.  The bank that was in real trouble was the bank of fannie and freddie.  It shouldn't exist


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21124986 - 01/15/15 03:13 PM (6 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Webster10 said:
They had the option to not buy the loan from you, didn't they? They chose to buy it. You're not forcing them to buy it.



Yes, but I misrepresented the loan by saying it was safe, and not that it was to a homeless guy.  There should be at least be a law saying I can't misrepresent what I'm reselling, don't you think?




The people who bought the paper were financial professionals.  Have you ever heard of the phrases "due diligence" and "caveat emptor"?  You complain that the banks were remiss in not performing due diligence on the buyers but you excuse the investors who bought the loan packages from the same scrutiny.  :flowstone:


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21125069 - 01/15/15 03:32 PM (6 years, 8 months ago)

>Any fraud the mortgage writers perpetrated on the investors/purchasers of their notes is irrelevant to the fact that the borrowers who defaulted were scumbags.

Many of them were, however having a series of unexpected life events does not make one a scumbag. I reserve that term for those who committed fraud in some way, like on the so called liar loans.

>The people who bought the paper were financial professionals.  Have you ever heard of the phrases "due diligence" and "caveat emptor"?

They were deceived by fraudulent appraisals and were pressured by the govt to buy the loans. The govt is also one of the bad guys here via stupid policies.


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: zappaisgod] * 1
    #21125093 - 01/15/15 03:37 PM (6 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:

I do not have $150,000 in accounts receivable because I am not an idiot. 



I see, so by your logic, the banks are idiots for making the loans...To recap:

Banks=idiots
Defaulters=scumbags


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21125302 - 01/15/15 04:33 PM (6 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
>Any fraud the mortgage writers perpetrated on the investors/purchasers of their notes is irrelevant to the fact that the borrowers who defaulted were scumbags.

Many of them were, however having a series of unexpected life events does not make one a scumbag. I reserve that term for those who committed fraud in some way, like on the so called liar loans.




You would have to have a real serious run of bad luck for me to excuse you.  Losing a job does not count.  Cancer might.  If you can't pay the mortgage sell the house.  That's it.  This doesn't happen overnight and anybody can sell a house in no more than 6 months.
Quote:



>The people who bought the paper were financial professionals.  Have you ever heard of the phrases "due diligence" and "caveat emptor"?

They were deceived by fraudulent appraisals and were pressured by the govt to buy the loans. The govt is also one of the bad guys here via stupid policies.




:picard:Fannie and freddie ARE the government.


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21125587 - 01/15/15 05:54 PM (6 years, 8 months ago)

>Fannie and freddie ARE the government.

No, actually they are not. They are controlled by the govt which is a big difference. The govt in the form of bush and then obumble pressured them to buy up the loans with little oversight. You could say they were ordered to but they have a way of keeping it unwritten many times.

>You would have to have a real serious run of bad luck for me to excuse you.

I have never asked for your excusing. When I buy a house I do it with cash. I do think the ones who did not pay were in the wrong, I said so several times. I merely object to lumping everyone into the category of "scumbag" who was unable to pay. Not everyone has rich relatives you know. Not everyone is a trustifarian.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21125628 - 01/15/15 06:02 PM (6 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
>Fannie and freddie ARE the government.

No, actually they are not. They are controlled by the govt which is a big difference. The govt in the form of bush and then obumble pressured them to buy up the loans with little oversight. You could say they were ordered to but they have a way of keeping it unwritten many times.




:picard: You are a walking talking face palm.  They are controlled by the government but they aren't part of it?  And it is well known that they were directed to increase their share of the market.  By the government.  The Clinton administration and HUD, run by Andrew Cuomo.
Quote:



>You would have to have a real serious run of bad luck for me to excuse you.:picard:

I have never asked for your excusing.




Unless you beat somebody for money that is moot.
Quote:

When I buy a house I do it with cash. I do think the ones who did not pay were in the wrong, I said so several times. I merely object to lumping everyone into the category of "scumbag" who was unable to pay. Not everyone has rich relatives you know. Not everyone is a trustifarian.




I don't give a fuck if anybody had rich relatives like you.  It is irrelevant.  Borrow money, pay it back or you are scum.  Simple.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Enlil]
    #21125644 - 01/15/15 06:06 PM (6 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Please...I have over $150k in accounts receivable that I'll never collect.




Perhaps you should rethink how you do things.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #21125666 - 01/15/15 06:11 PM (6 years, 8 months ago)

It goes with the job.  Lawyers deal with scumbags.


--------------------


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: zappaisgod] * 1
    #21125679 - 01/15/15 06:15 PM (6 years, 8 months ago)

>You are a walking talking face palm.  They are controlled by the government but they aren't part of it?

Is there anything you are not mistaken about? Anything at all? Of course there is a difference between being controlled by govt and being PART of govt. The military, for example, is controlled by the govt but is not part of it. The clerks, custodians, designers, and all the others doing myriad jobs for the govt are more examples. If you get a job pounding nails for a city hall job, do you imagine yourself as part of govt? You probably do.
:picard:

>I don't give a fuck if anybody had rich relatives like you.

I earned everything I have today, unlike you. I am probably more well to do than any of my relatives, much more so than the immediate family is or was. I don't have to pound nails or sit home collecting unemployment and/or welfare like a certain trustifarian we know.

Its easy to be judgemental when you got it made. I think the ones that defaulted were in the wrong and many were creeps and crooks. Unlike you, I also see the wrong things that some banks and lenders did. If someone doesn't pay me, I go after them. I started eviction proceedings last week because they were 10 days late and had made no arrangements. When they got that first notice on their door they came up with the check pronto. I have no problem with banks foreclosing on non payers but to call them all scumbags is wrong.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21125724 - 01/15/15 06:27 PM (6 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
>You are a walking talking face palm.  They are controlled by the government but they aren't part of it?

Is there anything you are not mistaken about? Anything at all? Of course there is a difference between being controlled by govt and being PART of govt. The military, for example, is controlled by the govt but is not part of it. The clerks, custodians, designers, and all the others doing myriad jobs for the govt are more examples. If you get a job pounding nails for a city hall job, do you imagine yourself as part of govt? You probably do.
:picard:




The military is not controlled by the government?  Put down the pipe.
Quote:



>I don't give a fuck if anybody had rich relatives like you.

I earned everything I have today, unlike you. I am probably more well to do than any of my relatives, much more so than the immediate family is or was. I don't have to pound nails or sit home collecting unemployment and/or welfare like a certain trustifarian we know.




Your derangement is going off the rails.
Quote:

 

Its easy to be judgemental when you got it made. I think the ones that defaulted were in the wrong and many were creeps and crooks. Unlike you, I also see the wrong things that some banks and lenders did. If someone doesn't pay me, I go after them. I started eviction proceedings last week because they were 10 days late and had made no arrangements. When they got that first notice on their door they came up with the check pronto. I have no problem with banks foreclosing on non payers but to call them all scumbags is wrong.




They are by definition scumbags and I am eagerly awaiting your support for your contention that I am a trustafarian.  Until it appears lets just assume that you are a slanderous liar


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21125811 - 01/15/15 06:43 PM (6 years, 8 months ago)

>The military is not controlled by the government?  Put down the pipe.

Your reading comprehension is zero at this point. I said the opposite.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21125839 - 01/15/15 06:52 PM (6 years, 8 months ago)

You are right.  I apologize.  You said it isn't part of the government.  That is fucking stupid.  It most certainly is part of the government.  Also controlled by it.


--------------------


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21126222 - 01/15/15 08:25 PM (6 years, 8 months ago)

Yeah, when you hammer nails for the mayor you probably think you are part of govt too. That is something so fucking stupid you would believe it.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21126377 - 01/15/15 08:53 PM (6 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Yeah, when you hammer nails for the mayor you probably think you are part of govt too. That is something so fucking stupid you would believe it.



This is so fucking stupid only you would post it


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21128629 - 01/16/15 12:44 PM (6 years, 8 months ago)

You are the stupid one who thinks anyone who works for the govt is part of the govt. Or have you realized how stupid that is yet?


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21129078 - 01/16/15 02:41 PM (6 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
You are the stupid one who thinks anyone who works for the govt is part of the govt. Or have you realized how stupid that is yet?



I'm not feeling very stupid here.


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21129146 - 01/16/15 02:54 PM (6 years, 8 months ago)

I will refrain from a snarky reply (this time) in hopes that your usual hostility will abate some day.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21129194 - 01/16/15 03:06 PM (6 years, 8 months ago)

You might just as well leave the site.  I doubt you will be missed.


--------------------


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21129253 - 01/16/15 03:19 PM (6 years, 8 months ago)

You might as well drink lye.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21130188 - 01/16/15 06:52 PM (6 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
You might just as well leave the site.  I doubt you will be missed.




follow this link:

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/ignoreinfo.php

now, i know your reading comprehension is pretty abysmal zappa, but this here list seems to show that 50 people are currently ignoring you, while only 2 are ignoring stonehenge. the logical conclusion here would be that if you were to leave the site, many people here would celebrate. while if stonehenge were to leave, not many would be happy about it.

just to recap, you are the 5th most ignored member on here, stop acting like everyone gives a fuck about you, because they dont. you are truly a horrid asshole.


--------------------
My Adventures Cultivating Mescaline Bearing Cacti

“Animals are something invented by plants to move seeds around. An extremely yang solution to a peculiar problem which they faced.”
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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: shroom_sensai]
    #21130271 - 01/16/15 07:08 PM (6 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

shroom_sensai said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
You might just as well leave the site.  I doubt you will be missed.




follow this link:

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/ignoreinfo.php

now, i know your reading comprehension is pretty abysmal zappa, but this here list seems to show that 50 people are currently ignoring you, while only 2 are ignoring stonehenge. the logical conclusion here would be that if you were to leave the site, many people here would celebrate. while if stonehenge were to leave, not many would be happy about it.

just to recap, you are the 5th most ignored member on here, stop acting like everyone gives a fuck about you, because they dont. you are truly a horrid asshole.




I know this.  Why don't you look at my ratings and then look at who has the most and 1s.  I would posit that the people who ignore me are fucking weak minded nitwits.  I don't even know who most of them are.  But you should feel free to join them.  Seems like your kind of crowd


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21130561 - 01/16/15 08:20 PM (6 years, 8 months ago)

:kelsoburn:

you got me good!!!!


--------------------
My Adventures Cultivating Mescaline Bearing Cacti

“Animals are something invented by plants to move seeds around. An extremely yang solution to a peculiar problem which they faced.”
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