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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21078525 - 01/06/15 08:16 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

On occasion fal is right about something. A stopped clock and all that. The derivatives market does exist and huge amounts of money are involved. It may be a little bit over zap's head and that of the majority of the public but its a real thing and can cause real problems. The media of course ignores it for the most part. We are told that gay marriage is the main thing we should focus on, that and celebrity gossip, and the latest pronouncements from the race hustlers.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21078597 - 01/06/15 08:26 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

I am well aware that you also are not well in this regard.  Did you know that you can buy a Wall Street Journal at almost any news stand in the country and they will have thousands and thousand of words in them and very few will be about celebrities?  True story bro.  Step away from the whackjob websites.


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21078792 - 01/06/15 08:49 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Yes, the mass media is obsessed with gay marriage and the other things I mentioned. I did not say the wsj.

Ignorance is nothing to be ashamed of, zap. Simply get some education about derivatives and you won't make a fool of yourself in front of fal and others.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21078914 - 01/06/15 09:11 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Yes, the mass media is obsessed with gay marriage and the other things I mentioned. I did not say the wsj.

Ignorance is nothing to be ashamed of, zap. Simply get some education about derivatives and you won't make a fool of yourself in front of fal and others.




I don't indulge in the mass media or whackjob websites.  Perhaps you could direct me to somebody in any serious capacity who backs up your whackjob paranoid alarmist delusion?

You have to be a drooling lunatic to think that there is even 600 trillion dollars to expose.  Or 300 trillion.  Lets say the whole derivatives market goes belly up?  Then what?  What will happen?  Will there be less bread, less oil?  Fewer houses?

Spare me your nutcase theories.


--------------------


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21078966 - 01/06/15 09:20 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

> Lets say the whole derivatives market goes belly up?  Then what?  What will happen?  Will there be less bread, less oil?  Fewer houses?

Zappa, you are embarrassing yourself needlessly with your aggressive wrong headedness. If the issuers of the derivatives can't cover losses, they will go under. This in most cases will be major banks and large brokerage houses. There was legislation passed recently with little discussion which will put the govt on the hook for much of the loss should it occur. This was allowed to get by because much of the public is ignorant of those things and the media is not interested in educating them. You and the rest of the sheep allowed it to happen.

So yes, there will be severe repercussions if the derivatives market goes belly up. This could happen if the stock market tanks or a number of events occur. To get you started, here is a link with basic info. Reading it is not as much fun as drinking until you are wall eyed but it would make you less ignorant. Not smart, but less ignorant.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derivative_(finance)


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21078980 - 01/06/15 09:24 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

However, these are "notional" values, and some economists say that this value greatly exaggerates the market value and the true credit risk faced by the parties involved. For example, in 2010, while the aggregate of OTC derivatives exceeded $600 trillion, the value of the market was estimated much lower, at $21 trillion. The credit risk equivalent of the derivative contracts was estimated at $3.3 trillion




Just shut up


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21079530 - 01/06/15 10:22 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
And a meteor could land on your head and little green men walk out of it and eat your eardrums.



That's what AIG said when they sold mortgage derivatives.




Tell me what is going on with AIG today?



:whatwhatwhat:

Here's what went on with AIG:

AIG sold mortgage derivatives to anyone that would buy them, selling WAY more than they could possibly afford to pay if mortgages went bad.  Then mortgages went bad and AIG was going bankrupt.  But that meant everyone that did business with AIG would lose their money, and also go bankrupt, which meant that other companies that dealt with those companies would go bankrupt, and so on.

The Government, realizing that this would cause a Great Depression, risked $180 billion in taxpayer money hoping to stop this chain reaction, and took an 80% stake in AIG in the largest government bailout of a private company in U.S. history.

Over time, AIG sold off it's valuable subsidiaries and was able to pay the Government back.  Crisis somewhat averted thanks to the US Government.

So you are now supporting Government bailouts of failed private companies?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21079561 - 01/06/15 10:24 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Braying your ignorance again? Tsk tsk. Read the info, slap your forehead saying "doh!" and stop making dumb utterances and quoting morons. A fool "estimating" the credit risk to be $3T does not make it so. You won't even name him.

Read fal's post to grasp an inkling of the problem.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21079729 - 01/06/15 10:47 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

However, these are "notional" values, and some economists say that this value greatly exaggerates the market value and the true credit risk faced by the parties involved. For example, in 2010, while the aggregate of OTC derivatives exceeded $600 trillion, the value of the market was estimated much lower, at $21 trillion.



Just shut up



No, you shut up.  Do you even know what you just posted?

The $21 trillion is the market value of derivatives TODAY.  In the future, that could be WAY more, over $600 trillion if the underlying assets, like mortgages, go bad again.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21079849 - 01/06/15 11:08 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
On occasion fal is right about something.

Read fal's post to grasp an inkling of the problem.



By the way, thank you.  :mushroom2:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlineimachavel
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21079921 - 01/06/15 11:16 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
And a meteor could land on your head and little green men walk out of it and eat your eardrums.



That's what AIG said when they sold mortgage derivatives.




Tell me what is going on with AIG today?



:whatwhatwhat:

Here's what went on with AIG:

AIG sold mortgage derivatives to anyone that would buy them, selling WAY more than they could possibly afford to pay if mortgages went bad.  Then mortgages went bad and AIG was going bankrupt.  But that meant everyone that did business with AIG would lose their money, and also go bankrupt, which meant that other companies that dealt with those companies would go bankrupt, and so on.

The Government, realizing that this would cause a Great Depression, risked $180 billion in taxpayer money hoping to stop this chain reaction, and took an 80% stake in AIG in the largest government bailout of a private company in U.S. history.

Over time, AIG sold off it's valuable subsidiaries and was able to pay the Government back.  Crisis somewhat averted thanks to the US Government.

So you are now supporting Government bailouts of failed private companies?




I wish it was against the law for the government to bail out failing companies. If government says its against the law to monopolize, why should they be allowed to bail out companies that failed because they couldn't balance a spread sheet? I can't think of a bigger monopoly then selling mortgage loan security funds and failing to be able to pay out on defaults. Especially when the "risk" is $100 billion.

If I own a car insurance company and 200 people wreck their cars and I can't pay all the claims and I go bankrupt, do I really deserve a bail out?


--------------------
The point to meditating is to feel the same when you are meditation as when you aren't. To be balanced inside and out. Difficult to do when being aware of breath and sensation. However, not impossible. Feeling ok about yourself at all times seems to be a great difficult skill to master. The concept so simple a snail could understand it. To practice it some of the greatest Albert Einstein type minds couldn't master it.

It's like the trick to human problems is to be even more human. Not less human but as human as possible, only understanding human nature.

Understanding subtleties is hard. What is subtle? Subtle is powerful. Atoms are subtle. Atoms make up everything we are. Understanding subtleties is one of the hardest parts of life.


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Offlineimachavel
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21079960 - 01/06/15 11:19 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

However, these are "notional" values, and some economists say that this value greatly exaggerates the market value and the true credit risk faced by the parties involved. For example, in 2010, while the aggregate of OTC derivatives exceeded $600 trillion, the value of the market was estimated much lower, at $21 trillion.



Just shut up



No, you shut up.  Do you even know what you just posted?

The $21 trillion is the market value of derivatives TODAY.  In the future, that could be WAY more, over $600 trillion if the underlying assets, like mortgages, go bad again.




He's been sort of melty lately. He just made a 10 page thread and complained about banned, and Rose told him "insulting people is against the rules and is a bannable offense" 45 times in the thread.

Of course, I'm sure "shut up" is appropriate


--------------------
The point to meditating is to feel the same when you are meditation as when you aren't. To be balanced inside and out. Difficult to do when being aware of breath and sensation. However, not impossible. Feeling ok about yourself at all times seems to be a great difficult skill to master. The concept so simple a snail could understand it. To practice it some of the greatest Albert Einstein type minds couldn't master it.

It's like the trick to human problems is to be even more human. Not less human but as human as possible, only understanding human nature.

Understanding subtleties is hard. What is subtle? Subtle is powerful. Atoms are subtle. Atoms make up everything we are. Understanding subtleties is one of the hardest parts of life.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: imachavel]
    #21080020 - 01/06/15 11:26 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

imachavel said:
I wish it was against the law for the government to bail out failing companies.

If I own a car insurance company and 200 people wreck their cars and I can't pay all the claims and I go bankrupt, do I really deserve a bail out?



The problem is that in this case, the Government HAD to bail out AIG to prevent a massive chain of bankruptcies.  I think it should be illegal for a company to sell more derivatives than they can cover losses on, or for a company to become "too big to fail".  :shrug:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #21080063 - 01/06/15 11:36 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

oh man im loving reading this thread, way to put zappa in his place!


--------------------
My Adventures Cultivating Mescaline Bearing Cacti

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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: shroom_sensai] * 1
    #21080070 - 01/06/15 11:38 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

arguing with him is like arguing with a brick wall that has the ability to make fun of you endlessly. no wonder hes the fifth most ignored member on here.


--------------------
My Adventures Cultivating Mescaline Bearing Cacti

“Animals are something invented by plants to move seeds around. An extremely yang solution to a peculiar problem which they faced.”
– Terence McKenna


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: shroom_sensai] * 1
    #21081572 - 01/07/15 11:21 AM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Zappa got banned? I thought he was immune? Anyway, it gives him a chance to avoid the embarrassment of being proven wrong once again.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755


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Offlineimachavel
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21081807 - 01/07/15 12:29 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

imachavel said:
I wish it was against the law for the government to bail out failing companies.

If I own a car insurance company and 200 people wreck their cars and I can't pay all the claims and I go bankrupt, do I really deserve a bail out?



The problem is that in this case, the Government HAD to bail out AIG to prevent a massive chain of bankruptcies.  I think it should be illegal for a company to sell more derivatives than they can cover losses on, or for a company to become "too big to fail".  :shrug:




That's what I meant. Why should the government bail out a company that shouldn't exist?


--------------------
The point to meditating is to feel the same when you are meditation as when you aren't. To be balanced inside and out. Difficult to do when being aware of breath and sensation. However, not impossible. Feeling ok about yourself at all times seems to be a great difficult skill to master. The concept so simple a snail could understand it. To practice it some of the greatest Albert Einstein type minds couldn't master it.

It's like the trick to human problems is to be even more human. Not less human but as human as possible, only understanding human nature.

Understanding subtleties is hard. What is subtle? Subtle is powerful. Atoms are subtle. Atoms make up everything we are. Understanding subtleties is one of the hardest parts of life.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: imachavel]
    #21082687 - 01/07/15 04:46 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

imachavel said:
Why should the government bail out a company that shouldn't exist?



Exactly.  :thumbup:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: imachavel]
    #21082766 - 01/07/15 05:05 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

imachavel said:
Why should the government bail out a company people that shouldn't exist?




Fixed that for you.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #21082841 - 01/07/15 05:23 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

imachavel said:
Why should the government bail out a company people that shouldn't exist?




Fixed that for you.



That too.  :thumbup:

Right after the Government bailout, AIG execs received amazing bonuses.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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