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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Offlinestarfire_xes
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How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress?
    #21063979 - 01/04/15 12:48 AM (6 years, 10 months ago)

Executive orders galore, making and breaking his own laws as he sees fit?  Now, if you answer that with 'well, if congress doesn't act, he should' or 'no problem, he's fixing things,' then let me ask you the question again;

How many of you are happy about Obama GOING AROUND THE PEOPLE's REPRESENTATIVES?  YOUR REPRESENTATIVES? 

Are you really happy with your representative being bypassed in the process?  If you still happy about it, will you you be happy with a republican president making an executive order that automatically cuts the corporate income tax to zero? 

Please, no 'BUSH MADE MORE EXECUTIVE ORDERS THAN O....'  OK, Bush was a fucking tool also. 

Making laws by dictorial decree is bad precedent.  Just think about the 'what if' a republican president coming in and doing whatever the fuck he wants.


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InvisiblezZZz
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: starfire_xes] * 1
    #21063996 - 01/04/15 12:56 AM (6 years, 10 months ago)

People seem to say the same about democrats when republicans are in office and vice versa. Apparently who ever is in office become the good guys and the ones just hanging around become the bad guys.,


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Offline420_shroomer
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: zZZz]
    #21064047 - 01/04/15 01:12 AM (6 years, 10 months ago)

Its true! I'm not happy with any politicians, if it wasn't Obama it'd be Romney, or McCain throwing around their weight acting like this, probably worse but who knows? My real question is why mother fuckers chose sides? Non of these ass-fucks are going to do anything good for us anyway...if people think a conservative would do any better, they are just as fucking retarded as our so called leaders!!! You know damn well that money rules this country, and the rich rule the money! Not the politicians!!! Why the hell are people surprised about this????


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: starfire_xes] * 1
    #21064830 - 01/04/15 10:23 AM (6 years, 10 months ago)

I agree it's bad precedent, but Obama certainly didn't set it.  Also, the public has been known to support such action in the past.  The Emancipation Proclamation is a good example of that.

The problem is that our system of government is imperfect.  It's prone to gridlock, and the government is far too large to get very much done at the federal level.  In that context, it can often be that breaking the rules of the system is a better way to represent the will of the people than following them.

Of course, that doesn't make it a good idea.  Discretion like that obviously means that it's just as likely to ignore the voice of the people as it is to serve that voice.  The better solution is to fix the system.  Of course, it's unrealistic to expect a broken system to be very good at fixing itself.

I suppose if I thought the separation of powers as set up by the Constitution was workable for our current government, I'd stand on the principle that we should work within that system.  I don't think it is, however.  It was workable when the federal government was small, but now that it has become what it is, it needs to be changed, or government needs to shrink to a size wherein the current system can work.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Enlil]
    #21065058 - 01/04/15 11:44 AM (6 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
I agree it's bad precedent, but Obama certainly didn't set it.  Also, the public has been known to support such action in the past.  The Emancipation Proclamation is a good example of that.

The problem is that our system of government is imperfect.  It's prone to gridlock, and the government is far too large to get very much done at the federal level.  In that context, it can often be that breaking the rules of the system is a better way to represent the will of the people than following them.

Of course, that doesn't make it a good idea.  Discretion like that obviously means that it's just as likely to ignore the voice of the people as it is to serve that voice.  The better solution is to fix the system.  Of course, it's unrealistic to expect a broken system to be very good at fixing itself.

I suppose if I thought the separation of powers as set up by the Constitution was workable for our current government, I'd stand on the principle that we should work within that system.  I don't think it is, however.  It was workable when the federal government was small, but now that it has become what it is, it needs to be changed, or government needs to shrink to a size wherein the current system can work.





Something like this. :thumbup:


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" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Icelander] * 1
    #21065256 - 01/04/15 12:57 PM (6 years, 10 months ago)

He certainly has expanded it into uncharted territory. 

I didn't like it before and I like it even less now that it has gotten completely out of hand.  This bodes ill for the future of the nation that the Legislature is basically a beard and the Executive branch, through unfettered  bureaucracy,operates directly counter the laws as written.  The Congress has been somewhat complicit in its own emasculation by refusing to make legislation clear and granting bureaucrats too much leeway.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: zappaisgod] * 1
    #21065393 - 01/04/15 01:22 PM (6 years, 10 months ago)

That's the nature of a large government, though.  There is no way that the federal government, as it is today, could function without the bureaucracy.  Congress wants to keep expanding its power by making government larger, but it simply cannot directly manage even 1% of the government.  As a result, it has delegated much of that to the administration. 

As government expands, administrative power will expand.  It's inevitable.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Enlil]
    #21065570 - 01/04/15 02:04 PM (6 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
That's the nature of a large government, though.  There is no way that the federal government, as it is today, could function without the bureaucracy.  Congress wants to keep expanding its power by making government larger, but it simply cannot directly manage even 1% of the government.  As a result, it has delegated much of that to the administration. 

As government expands, administrative power will expand.  It's inevitable.




The problem is that they have delegated legislative powers to unelected and unaccountable bureaucrats.  Case in point;  pinheads declaring CO2 a pollutant.  EPA and DEC bureaucrats think they are legislators and Congress is largely at fault.

Then there is the IRS making up their own rules.  The SEC making up their own rules and INS refusing to enforce the laws on the books.  Also Obamacare waivers granted to favored actors like whining unions


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: zappaisgod] * 1
    #21065591 - 01/04/15 02:08 PM (6 years, 10 months ago)

Again, there is no other way for a government this size to operate under the Constitution we currently have.  Congress can't possibly keep up with all of it


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Enlil]
    #21065797 - 01/04/15 03:00 PM (6 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Again, there is no other way for a government this size to operate under the Constitution we currently have.  Congress can't possibly keep up with all of it



You saying it does not carry any imprimatur of authority.  I listed several examples that could easily be carried out if the Executive and the bureaucracy had not gone rogue.


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21066588 - 01/04/15 06:15 PM (6 years, 10 months ago)

im curious, do you think there is a current form of government that is better equipped than the 3 branch system?


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: AcidBath]
    #21067005 - 01/04/15 07:43 PM (6 years, 10 months ago)

I think the system as originally set in place was great.  Too bad it is extinct.


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InvisiblezZZz
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21067072 - 01/04/15 07:50 PM (6 years, 10 months ago)

whos fault do think it was originally?..


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: Enlil]
    #21067100 - 01/04/15 07:55 PM (6 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
I agree it's bad precedent, but Obama certainly didn't set it.  Also, the public has been known to support such action in the past.  The Emancipation Proclamation is a good example of that.

The problem is that our system of government is imperfect.  It's prone to gridlock, and the government is far too large to get very much done at the federal level.  In that context, it can often be that breaking the rules of the system is a better way to represent the will of the people than following them.

Of course, that doesn't make it a good idea.  Discretion like that obviously means that it's just as likely to ignore the voice of the people as it is to serve that voice.  The better solution is to fix the system.  Of course, it's unrealistic to expect a broken system to be very good at fixing itself.

I suppose if I thought the separation of powers as set up by the Constitution was workable for our current government, I'd stand on the principle that we should work within that system.  I don't think it is, however.  It was workable when the federal government was small, but now that it has become what it is, it needs to be changed, or government needs to shrink to a size wherein the current system can work.




couldnt have said it better myself


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: zZZz] * 2
    #21067127 - 01/04/15 07:58 PM (6 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zZZz said:
whos fault do think it was originally?..




To a large extent I blame the Supreme Court for it's interpretation of the Commerce Clause and Congress for being cowards who abdicated their legislative responsibilities to bureaucrats because they were too cowardly to take a stand that might endanger their election chances.


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21067353 - 01/04/15 08:36 PM (6 years, 10 months ago)

dont hate the players, hate the game son


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: shroom_sensai] * 1
    #21067475 - 01/04/15 08:57 PM (6 years, 10 months ago)

No.  The rules were pretty clear.  The players are clearly cheating and the people are letting them. 

I'm telling you when a Republican wins the White House and does anything close to what Obama has done in terms of establishing an imperial presidency the liberals will be screaming bloody murder.  And I will mock them as the unprincipled whores they are.


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: zappaisgod] * 1
    #21067587 - 01/04/15 09:17 PM (6 years, 10 months ago)

unprincipled whores= politicians

im just saying dont hate the players, hate hasbro. the system is fucked.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: shroom_sensai]
    #21067593 - 01/04/15 09:18 PM (6 years, 10 months ago)

The system is not fucked.  The voters are.  The system is as good as there is.


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Re: How Many Of You Are Happy About Obama Going Around Congress? [Re: zappaisgod] * 1
    #21067658 - 01/04/15 09:26 PM (6 years, 10 months ago)

the system is fucked man, wake up it doesnt matter who you vote for theyre all controlled by lobbies, who are controlled by corporations.


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