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Offlineoptigram
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High Volume One Pot Liquid Tek?
    #2105595 - 11/14/03 11:41 AM (13 years, 29 days ago)

Q:Given the right nutrient ratios, temperature, ph and sterile conditions, is liquid culture a viable production route for psilocybin and is there a simple, scalable way of doing it?
A brief search of available literature was performed.
Industrial Fermentors:
Well, that's hardly simple, is it? look at all those tubes coming out of there. is that a dedicated drive?
we're not trying to win the nobel prize here, just figure out something simple that works. data collection is a complicated luxury, and unnesscesary for our purposes.
let's break down the fermentor into stuff we need to make mycelium grow:
vessel
aerator, consisting of a filtered inlet/outlet and disperser
means of sterilization.

the main considerations for components are cost and practicality.
optimal conditions are unlikely in this instance, so efficiency is less important than volume.
The main problem that pops out here is the complexity of the system. Think of every component as a possible point of system failure. the fewer components, the less that can go wrong.

the aerator is complex.
can it be eliminated?

let's assume our reaction vessel is a 55gallon ss drum.
let's assume we achieve sterile conditions by cooking it on a large propane burner, and that we attach a pressure gauge to assure 15psi.
lets say we seal it and cook it.
while cooling, how great is the danger of suckback if no gas escapes? no danger, right? if the seal is good. would it achieve temperature?
hmm...
instead of using a complicated, failure prone aerator, what if we simply used the contained gas in the drum?
the unit would be self contained. as long as it seals, there is little chance of contamination.
nesscesary data which I don't currently have:
mycelial gas requirements. how much O2 to how much mycelium? will co2 inhibit growth in this instance(what about some kind of chemical scrubber cartridge, contained in the drum?)?
what about supplementing the atmosphere in the drum with o2(+inert gas?) prior to sterilization?
surface area vs. gas exchange-how much nutrient solution to how much airspace? a large, cheap home made magnetic stirrer chucked in there, maybe...
more reading is required.

the adavntages of such a tek, if it could be made to work, are obvious. don't compare it to one grow, compare it to 5.

input is appreciated.


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Offlinedebianlinux
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Re: High Volume One Pot Liquid Tek? [Re: optigram]
    #2106050 - 11/14/03 01:33 PM (13 years, 29 days ago)

this has been considered before. hell, memory escapes me, who was it that had that tek that involved liquid myc culture and subsequent psilo-extraction so that no actual fruits were produced? I remember something about getting 10,000 trips worth out of one culture or some crap. it seems he made a lot of claims but never followed up with results or data.

also, psilo content has been reported to remain rather low in liquid culture. i do not doubt that there are ways to increase potency tho.


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: High Volume One Pot Liquid Tek? [Re: debianlinux]
    #2106071 - 11/14/03 01:37 PM (13 years, 29 days ago)

>who was it that had that tek

http://www.shroomery.org/index/par/7997


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Offlineangryjslice
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Re: High Volume One Pot Liquid Tek? [Re: Anno]
    #2106111 - 11/14/03 01:47 PM (13 years, 29 days ago)

maybe add one more step to that tek and it would work.  anno, can hyphal knots form on agar?

if so...pour a very thin layer of agar lets say 10 feet by 2 feet, pour out liquid culture onto it.  let it dig in and form knots, then you have psylo content you can extract.  you would need a full blown clean room, but it can be done :wink: . if agar doesnt allow shrooms to form knots, perhaps some other thin nutrient layer to pour liquid culture over.

as for the 5000 hits a week, i doubt it.  but you could get quite a bit of magic out of minimal work if this was worked out correctly. ie. knock up a huge ass jug of liquid, wait...pour agar, pour liquid on agar...wait....extract.  pretty easy steps, no?

sure this is all just me guessing, but it sounds like it would work...someone prove me wrong please.


anno: what happend to your avatar!?  no more pretty lady?
~JSlice~


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InvisibleHeruuka
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Re: High Volume One Pot Liquid Tek? [Re: optigram]
    #2123293 - 11/19/03 06:05 PM (13 years, 24 days ago)

So you've been posting too? good on you. You wont find much support for liquid culture here; fruits are just too damn easy too produce. High volme is also high risk and i'd think you'd have rediculus contam probs, at least in the begining. Besides, this would have to be done in steps as the amount of culture needed to effectively innoculate such a large volume would also have to be pretty substantial. REgardless of whether or not the liquid contained in the drum is totally sterile, if there are any contams in your culture or probs with your technique, you're gonna end up with one big drum of stinky poop-water.
I'd say that although there might be enough o2 in the drum, you'd probably reach dissolved co2 toxicity pretty quick (i think CO2 is more soluble then O2), maybe an internal CO2 scavenger would help?

good luck, k

H


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Offlineragadinks
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Re: High Volume One Pot Liquid Tek? [Re: Heruuka]
    #2125924 - 11/20/03 09:29 PM (13 years, 23 days ago)

think that would be a interesting thing, after all. In my opinion it could be done in a sterile way even with some rather low tek stuff. For example you could use some high pressure valves that open up at a certain pressure value ( 15 psi ) for autoclaving the whole batch. Aeration could probably be done with a pump and air that was cleaned by a HEPA filter ( or polyfil etc. ) and heated up in order to fight off contams. You could stir the whole batch with an motor and an electronic magnet or something similar. All stuff that you can get from ebay or your local garbage dump. I know that this would be a lot of work compared to the simple and good PF tek. But when it is running you might probably get higher yields with less effort. Kind of industrialisation ...


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Offlineblackout
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Re: High Volume One Pot Liquid Tek? [Re: ragadinks]
    #2126957 - 11/21/03 11:20 AM (13 years, 22 days ago)

adam gotliebs producers guide has been slated many times here. it is far too time consuming and the estimated dosage is way off. i have considered the keg before. get a keg drill 3 holes in it. fill with liquid innoc. but a filter patch on one hole. put a blob of silicon on another hole as a self healing injection site. have a aquarium pump with sterile inline microfilter to pump in air. the air is essential for good growth it is like brewing vinegar. the air will also cause agitation. to sterilise it doesnt need to be done to 15psi as it is only a liquid innoc. i would fractionally sterilise just to be sure. a single 50l keg is better than messing about with 1000's of tiny jars. a mechanical stirrer would be good too or a vibration plate to sit the keg on. in industry i heard you end up with little nuggets of mycelium


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Offlineangryjslice
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Re: High Volume One Pot Liquid Tek? [Re: blackout]
    #2127061 - 11/21/03 12:25 PM (13 years, 22 days ago)

but you missed the fact that you have to get that mycelium to form hyphal knots in order for it to be worth your while. like i said above...perhaps pouring the liquid medium out onto large slats of agar, like 10 foot by 2 foot or so...perhaps some ultra bright strobe light action on it for a few days with temperature cycling should be enough to encourage the knots to form...then wash the agar off, and extract.

anyone smart have any idea if that would work? i mean...work better than just the regular tek. i dont imagine anyone would ever get 5000 hits a week, and im definetly not interested in commercial style production, but a smaller version might be an interesting experiment.

~JSlice~


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Offlinedebianlinux
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Re: High Volume One Pot Liquid Tek? [Re: angryjslice]
    #2127791 - 11/21/03 05:55 PM (13 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

angryjslice said:
pouring the liquid medium out onto large slats of agar, like 10 foot by 2 foot or so




I can only imagine the precautioons and methods and equipment necessary to pull that off without massive contamination.


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Offlineblackout
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Re: High Volume One Pot Liquid Tek? [Re: angryjslice]
    #2134324 - 11/25/03 08:43 AM (13 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

angryjslice said:
but you missed the fact that you have to get that mycelium to form hyphal knots in order for it to be worth your while




have you any more info/links/references about potency of knots? i read in the other liquid broth thread that some strains had no psilo when grown submerged. a guy called doc charlie was here a few years back and was making progress growing on that green foam stuff for sticking dried plants in and flower arranging like wreaths. the liquid soaked it up nicely to a good moisture level. i had a mat of mycelium in a gallon jar once but no knots at all and it was exposed to light.

time to smoke some bud and put my thinking cap on


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Invisiblemicro
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Re: High Volume One Pot Liquid Tek? [Re: blackout]
    #2134445 - 11/25/03 10:28 AM (13 years, 18 days ago)

I'm sure all cubensis mycelium produces *some* psilocybin, but, IME, it seems to produce more with age. Liquid culture is great for inoculum, but is a waste of time for alkaloid production, IMO. It takes *A LOT* of mycelium to trip -- I've extracted it before and it took 9 OO-sized gel-caps full of goo to get a good trip on. It was kind of funny -- we didn't know how much goo to do, so we just split it in half -- we both tripped pretty hard. That mycelium would have produced 2-4 oz. of dry mushrooms, however, which is a lot more psilocybin.

All mycelium produces different amounts of alkaloids, too, IME. If you want to extract alkaloids just dry some fruitbodies and extract them -- you'll end up with a much, much more concentrated product, too.

--
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Offlineblackout
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Re: High Volume One Pot Liquid Tek? [Re: micro]
    #2139799 - 11/27/03 09:38 AM (13 years, 16 days ago)

how much is "a lot"? was it a liquid culture or extracted from colonised grain. i would call a gallon of liquid broth "a lot" for one trip but a 50l keg will hold 10 trips. the size may be bigger but it is essentially just one big jar so it is not much work. and may be easier for some and extremely less conspicuous than growing shrooms, it looks like brewing beer


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Invisiblemicro
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Re: High Volume One Pot Liquid Tek? [Re: blackout]
    #2139873 - 11/27/03 10:22 AM (13 years, 16 days ago)

About 2 quarts of mycelium (from brf substrate) for two people using 4 L of solvent....

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