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Offlinejonmel77
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Re: For those who don't believe they are made up of material processes. [Re: GoreTuzk]
    #21044169 - 12/30/14 01:58 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force... We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter.
Max Planck

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: For those who don't believe they are made up of material processes. [Re: jonmel77] * 1
    #21044494 - 12/30/14 03:21 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

I hardly think that MP is skilled enough to be an authority on this matter. :wink:

And when someone says "we must" then the red flags go up fast.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinejonmel77
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Re: For those who don't believe they are made up of material processes. [Re: Icelander]
    #21047172 - 12/31/14 01:11 AM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Max Planck was one of the leading quantum physicists of the 20th century so I'd say he knows a thing or two about 'material processes'. 
The truth is nothing is 'material' so to speak but consists of a still not understood wave/ particle duality which only exists as a probability.  Without this quantum uncertainty all classical material particles would simply annihilate themselves spontaneously as they decay into electromagnetic photons. 
Max Planck suggests that this quantum 'force', or inherent unpredictability of nature which prevents particles collapsing in on themselves is in fact an intelligent consciousness which permeates the whole universe. 
This is to say that not only is all life conscious, but also all matter and energy too at some level.  It is well known that states of consciousness in humans can change readily, ie with dreaming sleep, sufficient amounts of psychedelics and wotnot so I can't see why consciousness in some form couldn't exist at the material level. 
Of course this would be pretty hard to prove mathematically or even experimentally

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Offlinezzripz
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Re: For those who don't believe they are made up of material processes. [Re: jonmel77]
    #21047311 - 12/31/14 02:56 AM (9 years, 4 months ago)

see that even in this 'subatomic' dimension we get this dynamic--where by we are presented with two real events, eg 'wave' 'particle' and YET neither one part can be said to be 'what it is'. It is rather both. It is dynamic process which involves both states of being

Now if you look at the states 'dreaming' and 'reality', this is our experience isn't it?
If you say to most people about the subatomic phenomena which can be 'either or' 'particle' or 'wave' depending in perspective they will not be able to say they can know what your on about because they aint physicists with massive technological equipments for experimenting with all that, but we all know so-called reality and so-called dreaming

We apparently go through vibratory stages when we go to bed, from beta waves (wide awake) to alpha, theta, delta (dreamless sleep) and then cycle up the stages again to wide awake (beta). But in realityaren't we going through these vibratory stages throughout the day also. HOWEVER this 'materialistic' culture very much wants us in the so-called wide awake beta vibration doesn't it. This will explain its pushing of caffeine drugs on 'the people' like coffee and tea. As it will the targeting of children who cannot 'pay attention' in schools and so push them Ritalin (speed) to ensure they are in beta. NO DAYDREAMING allowed!!

But they also manipulate other vibratory stages like alpha. When people watch TV they are supposed to go into an alpha wave state, and this is when we are subjected to endless repetitive corporate advertising, and news propaganda, and 'entertainment'. But in order for them to be successful in this, they already have to dissociate us from our dreaming aspects through their 'education' system, as briefly explain above where now children are even drugged to 'stay awake' and 'focussed'. So it is divide and control. It is like the physicist demanding the particle BE the 'particle' and NOT the 'wave'.

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: For those who don't believe they are made up of material processes. [Re: Lakefingers]
    #21047437 - 12/31/14 04:58 AM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Lakefingers said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
...
What do you mean when you say consciousness?
Most of the rest I have heard before.
Do you have a definition or theory?




Was this reply actually intended for me?


yes
Quote:

I don't see why I need to have a definition or theory to begin with. I have made no assertions that would require that and lacking a definition or theory would not disprove my criticism of claims about consciousness.


true - but also the effort suggests a lot of involvement while laboring to seem uninvolved
Quote:

Consciousness is a difficult concept as it has many meanings. There seems to be no unifying definition that crosses all perspectives and sciences.


unless you read RGV's posts
Quote:

Let's just look at scientific uses of the word, skipping the non-scientific, theological and advanced philosophical perspectives and theories:
Medical doctors refers to an organism's comparatively brute awareness and response to the environment.


They normally consider consciousness in terms of conscious aka the waking states of mind versus unconscious or sleeping or coma or death
Quote:

Psychologists tends to define it as the personal awareness and higher-order thoughts, feelings and sensations;


your survey here is skimpy
Quote:

moral sciences may refer to all of the these, but also the understanding of one's very understanding of being a being with agency.


Can you get a masters degree in moral science?
Quote:

Sociologists tend to equate consciousness to subjectivity.


hmm, subjectivity and sociology, hmm...
Quote:

Philosophers may refer to any of the above, depending on their analysis, but in particular they focus on the problem of "mind" or "consciousness" as an analytically, empirically and historically problematic phenomenon.


touch but do not touch - this is where I think you are at, this includes assertions with built in disclaimers and this says nothing
Quote:

Maybe all scientific approaches will agree that consciousness is at least a concept of varying meanings used to describe a higher-order awareness, either natural or constructed, of oneself as a being among other beings in the world.


I this connected to the above as your summary, or is this an unsubstantiated claim, maybe one that you are actually proposing as a theory (with a built in disclaimer)?
Quote:

However, the concept is too large and is expected to cover several functions of this consciousness as well as all scientific and non-scientific definitions. In the scientific approach, the concept "consciousness" should be replaced by several specific technical concepts referring to specific observable phenomena ranging from cognitive, neural, representational, etc. events.


yes this makes sense, however if it is analyzed fairly not much needs to be added
Quote:

Philosophers in particular have been working on this for some time, clarifying what is meant by "consciousness."


That assertion could use some demonstration. Especially with a definition for "clarification"


--------------------
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Offlinejonmel77
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Re: For those who don't believe they are made up of material processes. [Re: zzripz]
    #21047458 - 12/31/14 05:18 AM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Cheers ZZripz good response, part of the problem here is definitely that the people "sheeple" are being denied access to their spirit selves (or inner consciousness) in the western world through "education", mainstream media and advertising as you note.  This makes people think that there is only a materialistic world and then actually believe it to the point that they have to question if there is anything more to life other than material processes! 
Whether this is done by deliberate manipulation of our species by our species, by some alien subjugation onto our species, or simply because this is how our species is evolving which appears to be in some backwards way.  The cynical me would say that maybe we just need to lose the 'dead wood' in some sort of environmental/ apocalyptic scenario ...
Either way, material processes don't explain how the universe came into existence, how life came into existence, how we are conscious and aware, why religion/ spiritual belief is so prevalent amongst all human cultures, the purpose of our existence or anything else really. 
Material processes are simply the basic rules by which matter and energy interact, form atoms and molecules which can be used (by consciousness) to build the universe we see before us.  Without a (conscious) observer material processes simply don't exist, they are forever trapped in a probability wave function.  An object can't 'exist' in the material world without something for it to interact with and form real particles of light/ matter which can be observed. 
There is also some ambiguity, lack of definition, for the the term 'conscious/ness' which hinders proper discussion here.  Perhaps OP could allude to a more roundabout definition.  I would probably include terms such as a freewill/ sentience, awareness by the mind of itself and surrounds, or perhaps a distinct sense of identity associated with each particular conscious entity which allows freedom to choose a favourable or particular outcome.  If we are simply material processes then where does freewill come from or does it even exist?
This then extends to the altered states of consciousness such as sleep/ daydream where there is still a 'conscious' observer, however are these states real in the 'real world'?  If not then where do they exist?  If its all 'in the mind' then why do we as humans need to be in such states daily in order to be healthy and survive?  Especially when the human brain uses more energy and is more active in the sleep state than it is when 'consciously' awake. 
Maybe it comes down to whether consciousness is a top-down process or a bottom-up, ie does consciousness arise and build itself out of material processes inherent to the universe, or is consciousness inherent to the structure of the universe and has the means to organise material processes.

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: For those who don't believe they are made up of material processes. [Re: jonmel77]
    #21047527 - 12/31/14 06:27 AM (9 years, 4 months ago)

the material fact that "the brain uses more energy while sleeping" wants proof - it is not reasonable from my point of view, since for most of the duration of the sleeping process we are unconscious:
we know that the dreams occur as we transition from being unconscious (at low energy) towards a waking state (of higher energy) - the transition may involve higher energy, as most changes of state do take some work.

the material fact about this aspect of sleep and dreaming is not related to social engineering that attempts to enslave the masses into material consumption.

we should avoid demonizing any word (such as material), thereby clouding our thinking because the word in some sentences means we are dis-empowered but in other sentences it has completely different meaning.

Personally, I love my sleep and my dreaming, and studying sleep and dreaming as material processes has not minimized their impact on life in any way. I contrast that to the impact that the marketing of Disneyland has had as a supreme consumerist set of ensnaring goals.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: For those who don't believe they are made up of material processes. [Re: jonmel77]
    #21047804 - 12/31/14 08:58 AM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

jonmel77 said:
Max Planck was one of the leading quantum physicists of the 20th century so I'd say he knows a thing or two about 'material processes'. 
The truth is nothing is 'material' so to speak but consists of a still not understood wave/ particle duality which only exists as a probability.  Without this quantum uncertainty all classical material particles would simply annihilate themselves spontaneously as they decay into electromagnetic photons. 
Max Planck suggests that this quantum 'force', or inherent unpredictability of nature which prevents particles collapsing in on themselves is in fact an intelligent consciousness which permeates the whole universe. 
This is to say that not only is all life conscious, but also all matter and energy too at some level.  It is well known that states of consciousness in humans can change readily, ie with dreaming sleep, sufficient amounts of psychedelics and wotnot so I can't see why consciousness in some form couldn't exist at the material level. 
Of course this would be pretty hard to prove mathematically or even experimentally



Quote:

jonmel77 said:
Max Planck was one of the leading quantum physicists of the 20th century so I'd say he knows a thing or two about 'material processes'. 
The truth is nothing is 'material' so to speak but consists of a still not understood wave/ particle duality which only exists as a probability.  Without this quantum uncertainty all classical material particles would simply annihilate themselves spontaneously as they decay into electromagnetic photons. 
Max Planck suggests that this quantum 'force', or inherent unpredictability of nature which prevents particles collapsing in on themselves is in fact an intelligent consciousness which permeates the whole universe. 
This is to say that not only is all life conscious, but also all matter and energy too at some level.  It is well known that states of consciousness in humans can change readily, ie with dreaming sleep, sufficient amounts of psychedelics and wotnot so I can't see why consciousness in some form couldn't exist at the material level. 
Of course this would be pretty hard to prove mathematically or even experimentally




Where is the theory he proposed from this and the evidence produced? 

Appeal to authority.  My uncle understands computers and is a tech expert.  So his views on ultimate reality must be valid. :monkeydance:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinezzripz
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Re: For those who don't believe they are made up of material processes. [Re: jonmel77]
    #21048044 - 12/31/14 10:04 AM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Material processes are simply the basic rules by which matter and energy interact, form atoms and molecules which can be used (by consciousness) to build the universe we see before us.  Without a (conscious) observer material processes simply don't exist, they are forever trapped in a probability wave function.  An object can't 'exist' in the material world without something for it to interact with and form real particles of light/ matter which can be observed.




Usually when I hear the term 'rules' it makes me think of authority, and especially school


Quote:


rule (n.) Look up rule at Dictionary.com
    c.1200, "principle or maxim governing conduct, formula to which conduct must be conformed" from Old French riule, Norman reule "rule, custom, (religious) order" (in Modern French partially re-Latinized as règle), from Vulgar Latin *regula, from Latin regula "straight stick, bar, ruler;" figuratively "a pattern, a model," related to regere "to rule, straighten, guide" (see regal). Replaced Old English wealdan.

    Meaning "regulation governing play of a game, etc." is from 1690s. Phrase rule of thumb first attested 1690s. Rule of law "supremacy of impartial and well-defined laws to any individual's power" is from 1883. Meaning "strip used for making straight lines or measuring" is recorded from mid-14c. Typography sense is attested from 1680s.
rule (v.) Look up rule at Dictionary.com
    c.1200, "to control, guide, direct," from Old French riuler "impose rule," from Latin regulare (see regulate). Legal sense "establish by decision" is recorded from early 15c. Meaning "mark with lines" is from 1590s. Meaning "to dominate, prevail" is from 1874. "Rule Brittania," patriotic song, is from 1740. Related: Ruled; ruling.





I therefore wouldn't use that term. I mean when water goes a certain flow, it is not 'following rules' it is by natural inclination, and intelligence, following a certain way which is its nature

Likewise what we call 'matter' is doing the same.

Also when you say that this 'matter' is 'used by consciousness', I get the image of some superior force over and above matter which 'USES' it like a potter uses clay, and this gives the assumption that 'matter' is some passive medium.

So again, I say beware of the danger of understanding a dyanmic, in this case 'matter' and 'consciousness' and/or 'mind' and then presuming that one part of this dynamic is overlording the other part, rather than understanding the essential is that it is a dynamic process that cannot be pulled apart to be analyzed as independent parts

Quote:

Without a (conscious) observer material processes simply don't exist, they are forever trapped in a probability wave function.




There again that image makes out that 'material processess' are some form of 'thing' which are trapped UNLESS the saviour 'consciousness' comes to its/their rescue and frees them from their entrapment.
That idea reminds me of the Orphic/Gnostic myth which presumed that the physical human body was a trap (as was nature) which entrapped a 'divine spark' and only through gnosis could it escape and return to its spiritual home apart from nature

But what if material processes itself is conscious and is thus a dynamic which actualizes itself though its nature as changes or flow? Rather than building the image of some poor 'mindless matter' entrapped in its own 'chaos' needing 'consciousness' to free it into form?

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: For those who don't believe they are made up of material processes. [Re: zzripz]
    #21048097 - 12/31/14 10:21 AM (9 years, 4 months ago)

conceptum entanglement


--------------------
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Offlinejonmel77
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Re: For those who don't believe they are made up of material processes. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #21049716 - 12/31/14 06:07 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

"Where is the theory he proposed from this and the evidence produced? " (regarding Max Planck)
Well there is no theory, this is what stumped him after he spent his whole life trying to understand and describe material processes at the quantum level.  He knew/ had a gut feeling that the solution was tied in with there being a consciousness embedded in every fundamental particle.   

Penrose and Hameroff probably have the leading theory of consciousness at the moment with their ORCH-OR (Orchestrated Objective Reduction) model.  A review of it is here; http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/01/140116085105.htm
Essentially it says that consciousness derives from quantum vibrations in microtubules in the brain.  They don't rule out whether consciousness preceded life or vice or versa although there is evidence that quantum coherence is also necessary for photosynthesis in plants.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: For those who don't believe they are made up of material processes. [Re: jonmel77]
    #21049846 - 12/31/14 06:44 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

"Where is the theory he proposed from this and the evidence produced? " (regarding Max Planck)
Well there is no theory, this is what stumped him after he spent his whole life trying to understand and describe material processes at the quantum level.  He knew/ had a gut feeling that the solution was tied in with there being a consciousness embedded in every fundamental particle.


Gee I have a gut feeling too. :tongue:

Whatever we believe about consciousness does not come from knowing but from guessing.  I've been listening to this shit for over 10 years now. :boring:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: For those who don't believe they are made up of material processes. [Re: Icelander]
    #21050237 - 12/31/14 08:49 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

how long have I watched you dying?


--------------------
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InvisibleLakefingers
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Re: For those who don't believe they are made up of material processes. *DELETED* [Re: redgreenvines]
    #21051222 - 01/01/15 04:57 AM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Post deleted by Lakefingers

Reason for deletion: No reason.

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: For those who don't believe they are made up of material processes. [Re: Lakefingers]
    #21051327 - 01/01/15 06:00 AM (9 years, 4 months ago)

possible


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: For those who don't believe they are made up of material processes. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #21051499 - 01/01/15 08:01 AM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
how long have I watched you dying?



About 10 years now.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: For those who don't believe they are made up of material processes. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #21051500 - 01/01/15 08:02 AM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
possible




Anything is possible.  Do you think it's probable?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: For those who don't believe they are made up of material processes. [Re: Icelander]
    #21051540 - 01/01/15 08:31 AM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
possible




Anything is possible.  Do you think it's probable?



it could be
:shrug:
(admits to knot knowing kwhat we are talking about)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: For those who don't believe they are made up of material processes. [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #21051567 - 01/01/15 09:01 AM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Please don't play dumb Red, say what you got to say right out in the open for once.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: For those who don't believe they are made up of material processes. [Re: Icelander]
    #21051642 - 01/01/15 10:02 AM (9 years, 4 months ago)

ok
I do not know what the reference to wolf is about.


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