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Offlined63
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Rhizomes (w/ beer and shooters:
    #21036118 - 12/28/14 04:07 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Rhizome 12/28/14 (in which I express some random thoughts then deal with a response by Deborah Gibson concerning the nature of Beauty:  First of all:

?: has America become some kind of cult….

That said, in the spirit of the Christmas joy that tends to spontaneously pop up throughout the boards (it was all over my Facebook announcements (I would like to point out that, for me, it is never a matter of authentic “love” or even “like”. Those are just categories that we tend to apply to the various relationships we tend to form in order to get a more fixed and accessible understanding of them. However, I have recently (today at the bar –or as I like to call it: the library (have come to think that it is mainly and always only a matter of liking having certain people in your life: those who seem to justify your point A to point B.

Happy holidays everyone! Love, like, or even hate, I can only hope the best for you.
*
Anyway, I want to respond to a discourse between me and one Deborah Gibson on the nature of Beauty and Art (that which was initiated by rhizome 12/21/14 on: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=187249&start=25

“Just found this from Mary Oliver: "We need beauty because it makes us ache to be worthy of it."

What you, Deborah Gibson (as well as Mary Oliver, seem to be getting at is the role played by Lacanian Jouissance in beauty: that kind of mixed push-pull (between pleasure and discomfort (that we tend to experience, at its purest, in sex. To explain: if you think about it, the experience of sex is always one of working towards a threshold that will take you out of a place that you are really enjoying at the time.

And we get a similar experience from the art that we most remember: our personal classics. Hence the “ache” that Mary Oliver describes.

To give you a sense of how Jouissance works in terms of Beauty, I would point to what I think was one of the most beautiful movie endings ever: that of Carroll Ballard’s The Black Stallion. It was as if he basically lobbed it in there. It started with the rhythmic thud of horse hooves on the soft dirt that was just awkward enough, while feeling equally regular, to give one a kind of uncomfortable pleasure (the ach (which slowly intensified as the low hum of a synthesizer worked its way in. It just built in a discomforting way that was so well paced that one could experience it as ecstatic.

At the same time, it was this lightness of touch that led to the disappointment of the money-shot when, towards the end of the race, Ballard broke into the flashback image of the boy riding the black stallion on the beach of the island they were stranded together on. It felt like a fudge. But you can see why Ballard did it in that you have to be sympathetic with his desire to get beyond the “ache”. But even that “disappointment” adds to the residual ache (that sense of remembering by being unfulfilled (that makes it a classic moment for me.

And it is this sense of being brought to the threshold of fulfillment (while never truly reaching it: the ache (that keeps us coming back: that makes it the truest experience we could have of beauty or art –that which we never feel worthy of.

Reference: http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/posting.php?mode=reply&f=25&t=187249#preview


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I refuse to be taken seriously.

Take care of your process and others will take care of theirs. No one needs a guru, just someone to play with.

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Offlinedpomalia
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Re: Rhizomes (w/ beer and shooters: [Re: d63] * 1
    #21036146 - 12/28/14 04:14 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

What in the hell are you talking about? And referring to? And why on the shroomery if its from another website? You think anyone really wants to read all this babble?
Sorry I like to read long posts and all but man this is some shit
Did I miss a memo or something?
Sorry... callzsits as eyes seezsit

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Offlined63
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Re: Rhizomes (w/ beer and shooters: [Re: dpomalia]
    #21117117 - 01/13/15 09:09 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

It’s not so much having gone so far down a path that you feel incapable of knowing of what it takes to be a normal human being; it’s the solipsistic experience of feeling like other people are.


--------------------
I refuse to be taken seriously.

Take care of your process and others will take care of theirs. No one needs a guru, just someone to play with.

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Offlined63
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Re: Rhizomes (w/ beer and shooters: [Re: d63]
    #21117138 - 01/13/15 09:13 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

"What in the hell are you talking about? And referring to? And why on the shroomery if its from another website? You think anyone really wants to read all this babble?
Sorry I like to read long posts and all but man this is some shit
Did I miss a memo or something?
Sorry... callzsits as eyes seezsit"

You should take some more mushrooms. You seem a little uptight.

Anyway:


--------------------
I refuse to be taken seriously.

Take care of your process and others will take care of theirs. No one needs a guru, just someone to play with.

Edited by d63 (01/13/15 09:15 PM)

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Offlined63
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Re: Rhizomes (w/ beer and shooters: [Re: d63]
    #21117158 - 01/13/15 09:15 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Rhizome 1/13/15:

It’s not so much having gone so far down a path that you feel incapable of knowing of what it takes to be a normal human being; it’s the solipsistic experience of feeling like other people are.
*
“Moravec's paradox is the discovery by artificial intelligence and robotics researchers that, contrary to traditional assumptions, high-level reasoning requires very little computation, but low-level sensorimotor skills require enormous computational resources. The principle was articulated by Hans Moravec (whence the name) and others in the 1980s.” –reference: http://forum.philosophynow.org/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=14370&start=30

To respond in a Grant Bartley kind of way:

“Well now: that’s interesting.”

Actually, Ginkgo: as counter intuitive as that sounds, you have to look at the simple formulas of logic:

A=B
B=C
Therefore: A=C

At the same time, having experienced consciousness as we have, you can’t help but feel there is a little existential overflow involved in it: what Lacan referred to as the Real. Still, you make a provocative point that I hope to explore further (w/ you if you happen to stick with me. I would also post, for the sake of the boards I cross pollinate on, your further point:

“Encoded in the large, highly evolved sensory and motor portions of the human brain is a billion years of experience about the nature of the world and how to survive in it. The deliberate process we call reasoning is, I believe, the thinnest veneer of human thought, effective only because it is supported by this much older and much powerful, though usually unconscious, sensorimotor knowledge. We are all prodigious olympians in perceptual and motor areas, so good that we make the difficult look easy. Abstract thought, though, is a new trick, perhaps less than 100 thousand years old. We have not yet mastered it. It is not all that intrinsically difficult; it just seems so when we do it.[47]

http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embodied_cognition
*
“You do not seem to need a lot of time to get ready for work. Same with me.

What kind of car do you drive? Which show are you watching now? Do you like people prying into your affairs? What's your favorite soup? Why?” –reference: http://www.humanarchy.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=447&p=2380#p2380 in reference to rhizome 1/11/15

Just going to break this down question by question, Perseus.

(And FC and Iona: I really want to get to your points. But this is low hanging fruit (no insult to you Perseus (which is what I need for tonight.)

“You do not seem to need a lot of time to get ready for work. Same with me.”

That is one of the advantages of having an Einstein’s Wardrobe –in more ways than one. What I didn’t point out explicitly in my description was that during the workweek I always stay in uniform. The main difference between on the clock and off of it is how I wear it. On the clock, everything is tucked in and I have all the cheese: my key ring, pager, radio, pocket protector with pens and small screwdrivers, a hot stick, and a small notebook. Off shift, the shirt is unbuttoned and draped over a tee-shirt in the summer or a tee-shirt and thermal in the winter and the cheese is in my backpack. During the summer, I prefer to wear flip-flops with my uniform since they are as close to wearing shorts as my veiny legs will allow me. And trust me: the world is much better off without having to look at the busted veins on my legs.

But one of the main advantages of having a uniform through the workweek, as you suggest, is that it does take a lot less time to get ready for work.

“What kind of car do you drive?”

A 2014 Chevy Spark. The first one I bought, 2 summers ago, was Jalapeño Green –and may have been the first one registered in the state of Nebraska. It was actually a kind of loud color (in daylight (that looked kind of slick and jazzy under streetlights at night. I called it my mean green jazz machine. But it got totaled last summer by a Mexican kid that was paying more attention to his seniorita than the red light he was running through. But I guess you gotta love love. I ended up with a denim blue one I call John Lee because it’s blue like John Lee Hooker and its headlights make it look like a Korean kid that’s up to mischief. 

The thing is that I recently found out that it has been declared the ugliest car in America. But I expected this. After I bought mine, I started seeing them all over the place –in all kinds of different colors. They got popular. So it was only a matter of time before a bunch of cynical and contrarian hipsters attempted to build their sense of self worth through the negativity of putting themselves above the common crowd by knocking something that was getting popular. I’m still waiting for some hipster comedian to start a rant with:

“What’s up with all these Sparks running around?”

And I especially expect them to zero in on the Jalapeno Green ones. The thing is I didn’t buy it to be cool. I bought it to be practical and socially responsible in the face of a world (under Capitalism (that is looking at self destructing through man-made global warming and the depletion of our natural resources. And I couldn’t find a good used small car. I even hope, one day, to buy a Smart Car as ridiculous as they look.

“Which show are you watching now?”

Right now, I am binge watching 30 Rock. I think there is a kind of genius about Tina Fey: as was demonstrated in her SNL portrayal of Sarah Palin. And this finds expression in the chemistry between her and Alec Baldwin -added to by Alec Baldwin’s ability to parody (in a way that stands up to Stephen Colbert’s (the right-wing sensibility.

“Do you like people prying into your affairs?”

Only when I have the control of publicly announcing them.

“What's your favorite soup?”

Vegetable with a beef or baloney sandwich.

"Why?”

Because they go good together.


--------------------
I refuse to be taken seriously.

Take care of your process and others will take care of theirs. No one needs a guru, just someone to play with.

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InvisibleTropism
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Registered: 09/12/09
Posts: 2,039
Re: Rhizomes (w/ beer and shooters: [Re: d63]
    #21117535 - 01/13/15 09:53 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

I had some beers and a shooter....

I still don't get it. :crazy:

can I have some of dat Rhizome prease?

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Offlined63
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Re: Rhizomes (w/ beer and shooters: [Re: Tropism]
    #21174635 - 01/25/15 12:28 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Rhizome 1/25/15:

Trees. Poems. Wallace’s Blackbirds. And now the rhizomes. According to my writings, they’re all out to get me. Clearly, paranoia lets no opportunity pass.
*
I think here of Picasso's point that taste is the enemy of art. Now I get what he means. He is pointing to the sense of Play involved in the creative act. However, Picasso was a visual artist and not one to give a lot of consideration to the meaning of words. It seems to me that art, by definition, is a social phenomenon and therefore a matter of taste. And the social sphere, of course, is the primary playground of the ego.

(from responses to Steven Orsolini’s post on: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1385673718356968/1554713361453002/?notif_t=group_comment_reply:

“You have an experience or obtain new information and come to a conclusion about life or the world or yourself. You believe you've learned something, gained knowledge. Sometime later, you have a new experience or obtain new information which compels you to rethink what you thought you knew previously. As a result, you know differently now than you knew before. Live long enough and pay close enough attention and you realize there is probably no end to the on-going revision of your knowledge and beliefs. A meta-awareness of the provisional nature of all knowledge and belief develops--one ceases to take any particular thought or conclusion too seriously. It's all stream of consciousness in a relatively mysterious life process, clouds passing by in an empty blue sky.”

Which led to:

“Art is visually symbolic; no less and no more than words. A piece of art can be read just as a poem, novel or philosophy tract. This, I think, puts it in the social sphere (where it is a matter of taste) AND in the realm of thought where it is both a matter of taste and of philosophy. Play away ...”

I think, Deborah, your confusing my use of the term "art" for the more restricted sense of the visual arts: painting, drawing, photography, etc.. But I was using it in the wider sense of that which is culturally accepted as being art (which can include writing (as compared to the creative act which anyone can engage in.

In this sense, we can say that art is the enemy of the creative act….

Of course we risk the confusion of a floating signifier in that art can be distinguished from craft which defines it as that transcendent effect: the whole that is more than its parts. And here we deal with the ambiguity of recognizing that the transcendent effect can be thought of as social and a matter of taste while also recognizing it as that which transcends social conventions.

I guess it just comes down to defining your terms.
*
“I can't remember who said this, but someone once said "a difference is something that makes a difference". A bit like saying that a circle is a bit circular. I don't know why but this, reminds me of the claim that there is no such things as mind independent categories.

Subject and object are so tightly intertwined that separation just leads to the idea that categorization has nothing to do with value judgements. So is Deleuze saying that subject and object relationships must lead to fluidity of meaning? For example, categories are largely dependent on such things as emotional responses, cultural perspective and scientific perspective. How science categorizes mammals is not necessarily the same as how you or I would regard mammals. How mammals are categorized now will change with time for everyone regardless of their perspective.

This is why I particularly liked reading Steven Orsolini's quote.” –Ginkgo: http://forum.philosophynow.org/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=14370&start=45

I would start with the easy stuff:

“This is why I particularly liked reading Steven Orsolini's quote.”

:since the only response I have is to inquire as to what quote you’re talking about. That said:

“I can't remember who said this, but someone once said "a difference is something that makes a difference". A bit like saying that a circle is a bit circular. I don't know why but this, reminds me of the claim that there is no such things as mind independent categories.”

I would say that categories are a little like Frost’s description of poems: momentary stays against confusion. And if you look at them in the sense that Kant offered, we can see how important they are (even if they are in a sense false and transitory (as a form of evolutionary adaption. And it may be this form of evolutionary adaption that has led to our ability to create art and philosophy –even science  which has a lot more in common with art and philosophy than some of its practitioners would like to admit. But let’s isolate another rhizome within the rhizome above:

“I don't know why but this, reminds me of the claim that there is no such things as mind independent categories.”

Nothing we can experience can be “mind independent”. And anyone who has ever done psychedelics knows this. If that were the case, then the experience of any mind altering drug would be one of everything looking like it normally does with the hallucinations that the brain produces imposed upon it. But that’s not what happens. Reality itself is changed. It ends up looking like a kind of candyland or a cartoon.

I would also (before my window runs out (note a point made by Daniel C. Dennett in Consciousness Explained: the way a psychedelic experience amplifies the way the brain builds its experiences from basic patterns to more complex ones and culminates in the experience of reality itself. Once again, anyone who has experienced psychedelics knows this.


--------------------
I refuse to be taken seriously.

Take care of your process and others will take care of theirs. No one needs a guru, just someone to play with.

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Offlinecenomyxa
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Re: Rhizomes (w/ beer and shooters: [Re: d63]
    #26491219 - 02/18/20 06:29 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

a difference is something that makes a difference



The great Gregory Bateson! It's second-order cybernetics.

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Rhizomes (w/ beer and shooters: [Re: cenomyxa]
    #26491236 - 02/18/20 06:44 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

I like the topic of beauty.

does this thread have that as a focus?

why so many links out? is this an advert?


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:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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