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 DividedQuantum
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Registered: 12/06/13
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 What in the hell is an electron, anyway?   1
#21036131 - 12/28/14 04:11 PM (9 years, 3 months ago) |
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"Electron." Great word. Does anyone -- anyone at all -- know what it refers to? Little balls hurtling through space, or a wire? No. Mathematical points? Representing what? Will we ever see one? No. What are they? I think we must concede that, aside from a few abstract mathematical principles, nobody really has any idea. There is no way for a human mind to visualize what is, in an electron, inherently unvisualizable. All we have to go on are our various languages -- with no clear idea of what the referent might be, or how a human can even relate to it at all, in any concrete way.
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Sun King
Registered: 02/15/14
Posts: 4,069
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Re: What in the hell is an electron, anyway? [Re: DividedQuantum]
#21036196 - 12/28/14 04:30 PM (9 years, 3 months ago) |
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It's a negatively charged particle usually found around atoms.
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DividedQuantum
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Re: What in the hell is an electron, anyway? [Re: Sun King] 2
#21036206 - 12/28/14 04:34 PM (9 years, 3 months ago) |
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I hope your tongue is planted in your cheek on that one, because it doesn't solve any of the problems of the OP at all. "Negative," "charge," "particle" and "atom" are all abstract conventions. Care to define any of those terms in ways that can be visualized or cognized in any sort of tangible or remotely objective way?
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Sun King
Registered: 02/15/14
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Re: What in the hell is an electron, anyway? [Re: DividedQuantum]
#21036262 - 12/28/14 04:45 PM (9 years, 3 months ago) |
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I don't have a problem with them.
Electric Charge is the physical property of matter that causes it to experience a force when placed in an electromagnetic field. There are two types of electric charges: positive and negative. Positively charged substances are repelled from other positively charged substances, but attracted to negatively charged substances; negatively charged substances are repelled from negative and attracted to positive.
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I_was_the_walrus
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Re: What in the hell is an electron, anyway? [Re: DividedQuantum]
#21036298 - 12/28/14 04:54 PM (9 years, 3 months ago) |
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DividedQuantum
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Re: What in the hell is an electron, anyway? [Re: Sun King] 2
#21036301 - 12/28/14 04:55 PM (9 years, 3 months ago) |
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So you're saying charge is something interacting with an electromagnetic field. What is an electromagnetic field? Something acting upon a charge.
What illumination!
You haven't really said anything. You're just using accepted terminology to refer to things that are not understood and cannot be visualized. How can we pretend to understand a thing if we cannot visualize it? This is my point. So far no one has gotten it.
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I_was_the_walrus
eggshells
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Re: What in the hell is an electron, anyway? [Re: DividedQuantum] 1
#21036318 - 12/28/14 04:59 PM (9 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
How can we pretend to understand a thing if we cannot visualize it?
Just because you cant visualize and understand something doesn't mean nobody else can.
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DividedQuantum
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If you're going to post elementary physics videos you're really missing the point. I am not ignorant of the science. What people don't realize is that they're ignorant of reality when they think they know what the word 'electron' really means. Please, from here on in this thread, do not fail to see that and most more ABC's of physics crap.
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DividedQuantum
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How do you visualize something that cannot be seen? Please do enlighten me.
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nooneman
Registered: 04/24/09
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Re: What in the hell is an electron, anyway? [Re: DividedQuantum] 1
#21036332 - 12/28/14 05:03 PM (9 years, 3 months ago) |
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This is just going to be a thread where a bunch of people bring you info, and you ignore all of it because you have a really poor understanding of basic science.
All this linguistics BS has already been done. Look up semiotics, linguistic structuralism, and post-structuralism. Semiotics (and post-structuralism which is kindof related) was done a long time ago, and refuted by everyone and their brother.
People got famous disproving that BS.
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Sun King
Registered: 02/15/14
Posts: 4,069
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Re: What in the hell is an electron, anyway? [Re: DividedQuantum] 1
#21036335 - 12/28/14 05:04 PM (9 years, 3 months ago) |
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DividedQuantum said:
So you're saying charge is something interacting with an electromagnetic field. What is an electromagnetic field? Something acting upon a charge.
What illumination!
You haven't really said anything. You're just using accepted terminology to refer to things that are not understood and cannot be visualized. How can we pretend to understand a thing if we cannot visualize it? This is my point. So far no one has gotten it.
Maybe everyone but you gets it.
We can model their behavior using mathematics and force them to do our bidding. That's good enough for me.
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DividedQuantum
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Quote:
The only link between the verbal and objective world is exclusively structural, necessitating the conclusion that the only content of all "knowledge" is structural. Now structure can be considered as a complex of relations, and ultimately as multi-dimensional order. From this point of view, all language can be considered as names for unspeakable entities on the objective level, be it things or feelings, or as names of relations. In fact... we find that an object represents an abstraction of a low order produced by our nervous system as the result of a sub-microscopic events acting as stimuli upon the nervous system.
Say whatever you choose about the object, and whatever you might say is not it. Or, in other wordsː Whatever you might say the object "is", well it is not. This negative statement is final, because it is negative.
-Alfred Korzybski, Science and Sanity (1933)
P.S. nooneman, you do not know what you are talking about, or what I am talking about
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DividedQuantum
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Re: What in the hell is an electron, anyway? [Re: Sun King]
#21036339 - 12/28/14 05:05 PM (9 years, 3 months ago) |
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lol
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I_was_the_walrus
eggshells
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Re: What in the hell is an electron, anyway? [Re: nooneman] 1
#21036351 - 12/28/14 05:09 PM (9 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
DividedQuantum said:
If you're going to post elementary physics videos you're really missing the point. I am not ignorant of the science. What people don't realize is that they're ignorant of reality when they think they know what the word 'electron' really means. Please, from here on in this thread, do not fail to see that and most more ABC's of physics crap.
Right 
Quote:
This is just going to be a thread where a bunch of people bring you info, and you ignore all of it because you have a really poor understanding of basic science.
Pretty much. I posted the "ABCs of physics" crap because from your original post, it seemed like you should watch it. I'm sorry if youre having some kind of existential crisis, but I doubt anybody here is in the mood to spoon feed you electron physics. Look it up.
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Sun King
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DividedQuantum
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I am not talking about the physics at all, but what the physics is about. Can you visualize an electron? If you can, then you have answered my question.
P.S. Electrons are not classical "objects." You cannot shine light on them to see them. Remember the Uncertainty Principle. Holy shit! So, all of you I ask you -- if you understand what an electron "is," how are you visualizing it? If you're visualizing it, what does it look like? We've never seen one (it's impossible, as I said), so what are we talking about? Does our advanced physics really mean we have the final answer? Will quantum mechanics never be improved upon? Does any of you know what you're talking about? I'm very disappointed in the intellectual quality of the responses in this thread. Come on, guys. Modern physics is not the answer. It is a means -- an abstraction -- of dealing with something we still don't understand fully. This is not really disagreed with by professional scientists. I'm trying to incite some imagination and all I'm getting is woeful misunderstanding.
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 BlueCoyote
Beyond
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Re: What in the hell is an electron, anyway? [Re: DividedQuantum]
#21036387 - 12/28/14 05:17 PM (9 years, 3 months ago) |
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An electron is just a tiny mass with a lot electromagnetic charge. Weirdly this charge seems the only unit of charge in our known physics, so it mus be a very special particle.
Inside an atom, the incredibly huge orbit in its probability cloud, compared with its own particular dimension, makes our observable physical world just an illusion, compared to the strong electromagnetic atomar fields which fill this space. And somewhere inside there the little neutrons and tiny protons who define which constellation the electrons build their orbital waves up.
We don't see or touch particles, we just see and touch distortions and electromagnetic fields from electron clouds.
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DividedQuantum
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Re: What in the hell is an electron, anyway? [Re: BlueCoyote] 1
#21036405 - 12/28/14 05:21 PM (9 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
BlueCoyote said:
An electron is just a tiny mass with a lot electromagnetic charge. Weirdly this charge seems the only unit of charge in our known physics, so it mus be a very special particle.
The incredibly huge orbit in its probability cloud, compared with its own particular dimension, makes our observable physical world just an illusion, compared to the strong electromagnetic atomar fields which fill this space.
We don't see or touch particles, we just see and touch distortions and electromagnetic fields from electron clouds.
Right, so... if we've never seen them or touched them, what can we say they "are"? One thing I'm trying to point out is that the primate nervous system is equipped to deal with classical objects that you can sense, that light can bounce off of. I'm further trying to suggest that electrons are so far removed from that that how can we say we know that much about what they really "are," even with the most advanced physics? Please bear in mind that physics will probably advance, and we will know more. Which means we don't know everything right now. Hard for some to comprehend, I know.
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Rahz
Alive Again
Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,334
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Re: What in the hell is an electron, anyway? [Re: DividedQuantum]
#21036820 - 12/28/14 07:13 PM (9 years, 3 months ago) |
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Not to discount the philosophy, being the question of the fundamental nature of an electron, or matter in general... but electrons have been photographed and still frames have been put together into a video.
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rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
"Human beings are born with different capacities. If they are free, they are not equal. And if they are equal, they are not free."
~Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
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DividedQuantum
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Re: What in the hell is an electron, anyway? [Re: Rahz]
#21036882 - 12/28/14 07:34 PM (9 years, 3 months ago) |
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Ah but Rahz you must remember that in quantum mechanics one has to say that that is not the electron, but rather its electric field interacting with the apparatus. An EEG would be analogous. You are seeing a relationship, not 'the thing in itself' or as such. We are not properly seeing what is there, but a relationship to what is there. My query is thus not invalidated, which is more philosophical as you point out, anyway.
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