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OfflinePhluff Head
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Registered: 11/26/14
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Help with brf to bulk substrate * 1
    #21032363 - 12/27/14 04:15 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

I have done multiple successful pf tek grows and want to give a shot at transferring my colonized brf cakes to a bulk substrate. I have read lots of different teks and understand the process but have a few questions regarding specific details. I know this is not the best recommended way to go but I do not have a pressure cooker yet and want to do try fruiting half my jars normal and the other half with bulk substrate. Please help me in completing this process successfully instead of telling me that it's not the route to take. I want to increase my yields as best as possible from fruiting the cakes normally using this method.

I usually get pre sterilized jars and have never had a problem. I have the option of getting pre sterilized and moisturized bulk substrate that is a mixture of dehydrated horse manure, exotic zoo manure, organic coconut coir, vermiculite, and gypsum. Can I use that right away and just mix my crumbled up brf cakes with it and have it fully colonize together in a tin tray directly from the bag and be alright?

What size tin tray should I use?

How many jars per tray or how deep should the mixture of colonized brf cakes and bulk substrate be in the tin?

What is a good ratio to use? (I have read anywhere from 1:1 to 1:5? But what is ideal for best luck for good results)

What is an exact way to measure the bulk substrate? Use an empty jar and fill it with the substrate? Use a measuring cup?

What would the measurement be of bulk substrate for example if the ratio was 1:3 would that mean 1 colonized jar to 3 jars of substrate?

Usually when my jars are colonize I get a few pins before I birth them, should I let the jars colonize normally as if I were going to fruit them before mixing with the bulk substrate or should I skip the couple days of waiting after the jars are 100% colonized on the outside so the mycelium is still in the process of growing before it pins when I mix it with the bulk substrate to ensure the entire mixture in the tray will colonize together?

After the mixtures are into the trays do I just cover it with tinfoil and put back into the dark place I have my brf cakes colonizing to let the trays colonize before putting into my SGFC?

After the trays are 100% colonized do I then add the casing layer on top ~.5-.75" thick to the trays before putting into fruiting?

Will these trays grow the same as cakes in the way they will grow in multiple flushes?

Should I use a cheese grater to crumble the cakes or just put them in a plastic bag and crumble them finely by hand?

Sorry for all the questions but I have done TONS of research and reading over the past few years but those are my concerns when it comes to transferring brf cakes to a bulk substrate for bigger yields. I have used the search engine and googled as much as I could but I don't understand the exact answers to the questions above and I want to have the best understanding I can before giving it a shot on my next grow.

Any information and tips will be greatly appreciated. While I do this I plan to get my own pressure cooker and supplies needed to do everything on my own for future experiments.

I understand this is not an ideal way to do a bulk grow but I feel it is a good stepping stone to go to from pf tek to ease my way into grains and bulk teks for future endeavors.

Thank you
:peace::love::sun:

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Invisibleblackdust
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Re: Help with brf to bulk substrate [Re: Phluff Head]
    #21032432 - 12/27/14 04:39 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Phluff Head said:


I usually get pre sterilized jars and have never had a problem. I have the option of getting pre sterilized and moisturized bulk substrate that is a mixture of dehydrated horse manure, exotic zoo manure, organic coconut coir, vermiculite, and gypsum. Can I use that right away and just mix my crumbled up brf cakes with it and have it fully colonize together in a tin tray directly from the bag and be alright?

Yes

What size tin tray should I use?

Any size

How many jars per tray or how deep should the mixture of colonized brf cakes and bulk substrate be in the tin?

Depends on preference.


What is a good ratio to use? (I have read anywhere from 1:1 to 1:5? But what is ideal for best luck for good results)

I prefer a 1:1 ratio. Using less will result in longer colonization times. This also cuts down the risk of contams.

What is an exact way to measure the bulk substrate? Use an empty jar and fill it with the substrate? Use a measuring cup?

No need to measure. Many people you qt jars as a way to measure though

What would the measurement be of bulk substrate for example if the ratio was 1:3 would that mean 1 colonized jar to 3 jars of substrate?

Yes!

Usually when my jars are colonize I get a few pins before I birth them, should I let the jars colonize normally as if I were going to fruit them before mixing with the bulk substrate or should I skip the couple days of waiting after the jars are 100% colonized on the outside so the mycelium is still in the process of growing before it pins when I mix it with the bulk substrate to ensure the entire mixture in the tray will colonize together?

Spawn at 100%. No need to consolidated. We want the myceilum as aggressive as possible.

After the mixtures are into the trays do I just cover it with tinfoil and put back into the dark place I have my brf cakes colonizing to let the trays colonize before putting into my SGFC?

Yes. Tinfoil.

After the trays are 100% colonized do I then add the casing layer on top ~.5-.75" thick to the trays before putting into fruiting?

I would if humidity is an issue.

Will these trays grow the same as cakes in the way they will grow in multiple flushes?

Yes!

Should I use a cheese grater to crumble the cakes or just put them in a plastic bag and crumble them finely by hand?

Preference.





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Invisibleblackdust
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Re: Help with brf to bulk substrate [Re: blackdust]
    #21032448 - 12/27/14 04:43 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

1/4 inch on casing btw

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Invisible13shroomsM
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Re: Help with brf to bulk substrate [Re: blackdust]
    #21032451 - 12/27/14 04:45 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

:whathesaid: 
just to keep it simple

you can use manure and coir but you also need vermiculite for water retention. 

you take a 5gal bucket, put a brick of coir and 2-3 qts of verm into it then pour 4qts of hot almost boiling water on it and shut the lid for 30mins, come back and stir it up very well then add your manure to it and cover to cool to room temp.  that is all your prepped bulk substrate now. 

take your crumbled cakes (should have at least 2 dozen maybe 3 if you can make that many) equal to 5-6 qts of grain spawn is why so many cakes.  thats a spawn/sub ration of 1:2, you can use less but it will colonize a few days slower, up to you. 

once you mixed all your cakes/spawn into the bucket just fill up any/all tray you have at a minimum of 2" up to 4" (3" avg).  then cover for 10-14 days to colonize dont open early or the frsh air will start the myc into fruiting early and give odd growth at times.  but once fully colonized take the cover of (I use clear plastic wrap to ach progress) and put into your sgfc or a monotub style FC.  sgfc would be best for trays or justdump the whole 5 gal bucket into a monotub and colonize the whole thing for several ounces of fruits. 

like this only substitute the grainspawn jars for your crumbled cake spawn and follow the rest. 
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/11916595#11916595


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Invisible13shroomsM
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Re: Help with brf to bulk substrate [Re: 13shrooms]
    #21032464 - 12/27/14 04:49 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

if you dont like the random answers of the forum feel free to ask here for any help you need in the future http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/14297019#14297019

AMU - its what we do.  :stoner:


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Invisibleblackdust
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Re: Help with brf to bulk substrate [Re: 13shrooms]
    #21032492 - 12/27/14 04:59 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

13shrooms said:
if you dont like the random answers of the forum feel free to ask here for any help you need in the future http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/14297019#14297019

AMU - its what we do.  :stoner:




One of the best threads on the site!

:themoreyouknow:

You may also want to know that you can expand a PF cake to more spawn medium. Kinda like G2G. For example, This spawn bag is made with the PF tek recipe. I used 1 PF cake to expand to a bag that would = to 20 PF cakes. That would be a 1:20 ratio. According to Statmets, We dont want to go more than a 1:40 ratio when expanding a spawn medium. The rules change though when using LI/LC.


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OfflinePhluff Head
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Re: Help with brf to bulk substrate [Re: 13shrooms]
    #21032509 - 12/27/14 05:03 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

So the ratio should be half colonized brf crumbled cakes and half substrate?

What works better using a cheese grater to get the cakes finely crumbled or put in a bag and crumble by hand I to small pieces? I know it is preference but would using a cheese grater work best because more surface area would be available on the mycelium to help spread or would sma chunks of itbe better as in like the little chunks are stronger pieces to keep the myecelium spreading or does it really not matter?

The substrate I plan to order is only sold by the lb and I'm not sure how many jars will equal how many lbs of substrate. I will have probably 48-60 1/2 pint jars colonized to play with.

How much of a difference will the yield be for doing something like this. I know there is not a guaranteed answer due to all te variables in the process but could I at least expect to double it doing this ?

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OfflinePhluff Head
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Re: Help with brf to bulk substrate [Re: Phluff Head]
    #21032621 - 12/27/14 05:32 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

So a 50/50 ratio using colonized brf cakes and bulk substrate in any size tin cooking trays ~3" deep. Let colonize like normal brf jars again in my closet and put into fruiting conditions when at 100%?

Bingo? Sounds easy enough I hope it's all good and not too good to be true haha I really can't afford to loose money on this so I plan to do half normal jars and half to bulk sub to dip my feet in the water at this

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InvisibleToxicDuck
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Re: Help with brf to bulk substrate [Re: Phluff Head]
    #21032630 - 12/27/14 05:34 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Phluff Head said:
So a 50/50 ratio using colonized brf cakes and bulk substrate in any size tin cooking trays ~3" deep. Let colonize like normal brf jars again in my closet and put into fruiting conditions when at 100%?

Bingo? Sounds easy enough I hope it's all good and not too good to be true haha I really can't afford to loose money on this so I plan to do half normal jars and half to bulk sub to dip my feet in the water at this




Correct, I would spawn to CVG, after you spawn to a container assuming it's a tray cover with aluminum foil, poke a few small holes, and fruit in your sgfc as normal. You don't need to do it in your closet, you saying that makes me think that you think light is bad.

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OfflinePhluff Head
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Re: Help with brf to bulk substrate [Re: ToxicDuck]
    #21032768 - 12/27/14 06:09 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Is there a significant yield difference from normal cakes to bulk substrate?

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InvisibleToxicDuck
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Re: Help with brf to bulk substrate [Re: Phluff Head]
    #21032800 - 12/27/14 06:16 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Phluff Head said:
Is there a significant yield difference from normal cakes to bulk substrate?




I'd say it's a maybe. I would really only suggest doing cakes to bulk just for the practice before you move up to grains. After you start doing grains and such I'd suggest to just fruit cakes as cakes :shrug:.

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OfflinePhluff Head
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Re: Help with brf to bulk substrate [Re: blackdust]
    #21032985 - 12/27/14 07:00 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

blackdust said:
Quote:

13shrooms said:
if you dont like the random answers of the forum feel free to ask here for any help you need in the future http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/14297019#14297019

AMU - its what we do.  :stoner:




One of the best threads on the site!

:themoreyouknow:

You may also want to know that you can expand a PF cake to more spawn medium. Kinda like G2G. For example, This spawn bag is made with the PF tek recipe. I used 1 PF cake to expand to a bag that would = to 20 PF cakes. That would be a 1:20 ratio. According to Statmets, We dont want to go more than a 1:40 ratio when expanding a spawn medium. The rules change though when using LI/LC.





How do you create more spawn from jars like you were saying?

So I could potentially take a few of my jars and sacrifice them into making a lot more spawn to use? Please explain

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InvisibleToxicDuck
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Re: Help with brf to bulk substrate [Re: Phluff Head]
    #21033003 - 12/27/14 07:03 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Scrape some mycelium off a fully colonized cake and transfer it to some grains in a sab or in front of a flowhood.

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Invisibleblackdust
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Re: Help with brf to bulk substrate [Re: Phluff Head]
    #21033048 - 12/27/14 07:16 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

P2G

Slurry


I used slurry for this bag. I did this bag in open air. I did not sterilize my blender. I used tap water. Results may very and I AM NOT ADVISING YOU TO DO THIS. I do believe that slurry is contam resistant though. SO if you follow his tek to the T then you should have no problems. For example, look at these oven pasteurized cakes. I made all 9 in open air and not sterilizing my blender/used tap water. All cakes have produced fruits and did not contam. could just be luck. BUT, they were only oven pasteurized and I ignored all sterile procedures. That tells me that slurry is contam resistant.




EDIT: SLURRY CAN TAKE 1 1/2 pint cake and turn it into nearly 100 qts of spawn. I'm a spawn fan though and will always favor spawn material over sub material.

Edited by blackdust (12/27/14 07:18 PM)

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Offlinekellogg
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Re: Help with brf to bulk substrate [Re: blackdust]
    #22102659 - 08/17/15 12:41 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

blackdust said:
Usually when my jars are colonize I get a few pins before I birth them, should I let the jars colonize normally as if I were going to fruit them before mixing with the bulk substrate or should I skip the couple days of waiting after the jars are 100% colonized on the outside so the mycelium is still in the process of growing before it pins when I mix it with the bulk substrate to ensure the entire mixture in the tray will colonize together?

Quote:

Phluff Head said:
Spawn at 100%. No need to consolidated. We want the myceilum as aggressive as possible.


would it still be okay to try a grain to grain transfer from brf to wbs in a still air box, if the brf cake is on its second day ("invitro?") pinning after 100% inside its jar?

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OfflinecronicrFacebook
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Re: Help with brf to bulk substrate [Re: kellogg]
    #22102668 - 08/17/15 12:43 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

if it's still sterile give it a shot


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Offlinekellogg
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Re: Help with brf to bulk substrate [Re: cronicr]
    #22104445 - 08/17/15 08:48 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

how would one keep as sterile a technique as possible, removing a dry verm barrier to transfer the myc below it to other jars? its going to be done in a SAB, but i would assume any work i do to remowlve the dry verm would increse chance of contam by manipulating the cake more

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OfflineAkbal5
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Re: Help with brf to bulk substrate [Re: Phluff Head]
    #24261573 - 04/21/17 11:06 AM (6 years, 11 months ago)

thanks , useful post , im planning make 50/50 vermiculite and BRF as a substrate , it can work or i have to add some horse poop ?

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InvisibleMad Season
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Re: Help with brf to bulk substrate [Re: Akbal5]
    #24261577 - 04/21/17 11:08 AM (6 years, 11 months ago)

Exposing uncolonized brf to open air is not good. Kinda like exposing grains. Shit will contam quick.

Instead get some coir or something that'll last.


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Invisiblemynakedrat
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Re: Help with brf to bulk substrate [Re: Mad Season]
    #24261588 - 04/21/17 11:20 AM (6 years, 11 months ago)

I throw horse poo in, and coffee, but it's not necessary at all.

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