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Offlinea-bram-boos
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Cacao and psilocybin: an effective combination or myth?
    #12735238 - 06/13/10 09:55 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

First of all many thanks to this website and its members for providing me with much valuable information so far, especially concerning growing techniques. Let me first explain the context of my interest in the combination of cacao and psilocybin:
I have read a lot about the tolerance issue concerning mushrooms, many claiming that effects will diminish or even disappear when tripping several times within a short period of time (lets say one week). Though I do think that its always wise to have some sort of time buffer between two trips to process the experience, I had never experienced this phenomenon of tolerance towards psilocybin before, even when taking mushrooms 3 times in two weeks. As I always eat a lot of pure chocolate (86%) the day before and some hours before I consume the mushrooms, I wondered if this was the reason I did not experience this 'problem'. After searching the shroomery for a while, it became clear that opinions varied largely on whether or not chocolate/cacao could positively influence a mushroom trip. Thus I decided to put it to the test.

I would take 3 trips within a week, all 4 g dry, the first and last combined with cacao, the 2nd without. I should also note that during and before all trips I smoked ganja. First trip was a common (but as always great) one; however the second trip 3 days later was a bummer. I kinda had the feeling I was on the bridge and at the end a great trip awaited me, but could not cross it somehow. There were some mild hallucinations, but they were uninteresting +  it lacked the usual euphoric feeling and a voice talking to me, which I usually get when on shrooms. Another 3 days later I took mushrooms again, this time after I had eaten almost a double amount of cacao during the the day. It turned out to be the most amazing and mind blowing trip for me so far. I wont go into much details of the trip, but visions of myself in a different time, being able to slow down or speed up time consciously and talking to my death father (who told me he was me and everything else in the universe, which is why there is no such thing as death) and many more really made this trip stand out from other trips. In a euphoric state I called a friend and told him that it is now certain that chocolate indeed greatly influences the effect of psilocybin in a positive way. Now a week later I wonder: was this proof that cacao abolishes the tolerance issue and intensifies the effect of psilocybin, or was it rather a sort of placebo effect, as I was pretty convinced before hand that cacao indeed has a profound effect on the effectiveness of psilocybin...

. I am aware of the fact that cacao is not an actual MAOi, however in humans it does have (may it be slightly) some effects on, for example, sex drive and mood. I remember that during another trip I contemplated that cacao might not only effect the mushrooms trip, but that psilocybin actually dramatically increases the effects of cacao... I don’t think there is any scientific basis for this idea though.

I am very curious about the experiences and opinions of other mushroom enthusiasts on the subject.  Do more people combine the two; does anybody actually experience the tolerance effect (does it really exist);  is there any information that could prove or disprove my hypothesis? Any information, opinion or experience would be helpful.

Excuse me for any weak language usages, English is not my mother-tongue. Ones again give thanks for this informative website and its helpful visitors. 1L

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OfflineOli
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Re: Cacao and psilocybin: an effective combination or myth? [Re: a-bram-boos]
    #20839580 - 11/15/14 04:47 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)

I'm trying a ounce and a half of wet libs tonight with some cacoa... Ill rteport back

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Offlines240779
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Re: Cacao and psilocybin: an effective combination or myth? [Re: a-bram-boos] * 1
    #20839702 - 11/15/14 06:44 AM (9 years, 3 months ago)
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Cacao has MAOIs in it, although their quantity and bioavailability has been called into question. The MAOIs include several chemicals in the tetrahydro-β-carboline sub-class (listed first) as well as catechin and epicatechin, which are MAO-B inhibitors. There are some additional unique chemicals found in cacao, and I'm going to go over them all in this post.


Tetrahydro-β-carbolines


Source for below quotes: Herraiz, Tomas. 2000. "Tetrahydro-β-carbolines, Potential Neuroactive Alkaloids, in Chocolate and Cocoa", Journal of Agricultural and Food Chemistry., 48 (10), pp 4900–4904. DOWNLOAD


Tetrahydro-β-carbolines (THβCs), potential neuroactive alkaloids, were found in chocolate and cocoa. 6-Hydroxy-1-methyl-1,2,3,4-tetrahydro-β-carboline (6OHMTHβC), 1,2,3,4-tetrahydro-β-carboline-3-carboxylic acid (THCA), 1-methyl-1,2,3,4-tetrahydro-β-carboline-3-carboxylic acid (MTCA) in both diastereoisomers (1S,3S and 1R,3S), and 1-methyl-1,2,3,4-tetrahydro-β-carboline (MTHβC), ... (Abstract)


THβCs inhibit the monoamine oxidase and the monoamine uptake, and bind to the benzodiazepine receptor (Buckholtz, 1980; Airaksinen and Kari, 1981; Braestrup et al., 1980; Melchior and Collins, 1982; Myers, 1989; Rommelspacher et al., 1991; Cox and Cook, 1995). (Introduction)


Despite their supposed relative low concentration (i.e. an average of 30 g/person/ day consumption of dark chocolate would account for an ingestion of up to 0.21 mg/person/day of total THβCs), the presence of THβCs exhibiting potential bioactive or neuroactive properties could play a role in craving, and this hypothesis deserves further attention. (Discussion)


NOTE: I've provided downloads for the citations that I was able to obtain using http://libgen.org


Buckholtz N. S. Neurobiology of tetrahydro-β-carbolines. Life Sci. 1980, 27, 893–903. DOWNLOAD

Airaksinen, M. M.; Kari, I. β-carbolines, psychoactive compounds in the mammalian body. Part 2: effects. Med. Biol. 1981, 59, 190–211.

Braestrup, C.; Nielsen, M.; Olsen C. E. Urinary and brain β-carboline-3-carboxylates as potent inhibitors of brain benzodiazepine receptors. Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. U.S.A. 1980, 77, 2288 - 2292.

Rommelspacher, H.; May, T.; Susilo, R. β-Carbolines and Tetrahydroisoquinolines: detection and function in mammals. Planta Med. 1991, 57, S85–S92.

Cox, E. D.; Cook, J. M. The Pictet–Spengler condensation: a new direction for an old reaction. Chem. Rev. 1995, 95, 1797–1842. DOWNLOAD

Melchior, C.; Collins, M. A. The route and significance of endogenous synthesis of alkaloids in animals. In CRC Critical Reviews in Toxicology. CRC Press: Boca Raton, FL, 1982; pp 313–356. DOWNLOAD


Catechin

This chemical is found in cacao:

Kofink M, Papagiannopoulos M, Galensa R, (2007), (-)-Catechin in Cocoa and Chocolate: Occurence and Analysis of an Atypical Flavan-3-ol Enantiomer. Molecules, 12(7), 1274–1288. DOWNLOAD


The following study found catechin to be an MAO-B inhibitor:

Hou WC, Lin RD, Chen CT, Lee MH, (2000), Monoamine oxidase B (MAO-B) inhibition by active principles from Uncaria rhynchophylla. Journal of Ethnopharmacology. 100(1–2), 216–20. DOWNLOAD


However, the moderator of the Neuroscience and Pharmacology Discussion on Bluelight pointed out... "Catechin etc may be weak MAOIs but the issues is that they are extraordinarily poor as pharmaceuticals because of low absorbtion and high first-pass metabolism. Whatever activity shown in a cell assay is unattainable without correspondingly much larger doses in an actual animal." (1-5-2014) And this was the reference he supplied:

Bioavailability of Tea Components. Yashin A., Nemzer B., Yashin Y. 28 Apr. 2012, Journal of Food Research, vol. 1, issue 2. DOWNLOAD


Catechin produces vasodilation:


The Department of Nutrition at University of California at Davis16 found that healthy men who ingested flavanol-rich cocoa demonstrated acute elevations of circulating nitric oxide, enhanced flow-mediated vasodilation in conduit arteries, and augmented microcirculation. Effects were thought to be mediated by the flavanol (-)-epicatechin.

16. Schroeter H, Heiss C, Balzer J, et al. (-)-Epicatechin mediates beneficial effects of flavanol-rich cocoa on vascular function in humans. Proc Natl Acad Sci USA. 2006;103:1024-1029.
DOWNLOAD

The truth is often bittersweet ...: chocolate does a heart good. Alspach G. Crit Care Nurse. 2007;27(1):11–5 Page 12, last paragraph.


Phenylethyalmine

Back in the seventies or eighties, it seems like chocolate developed a reputation as being a unique psychoactive as a result of the fact that it contains PEA (phenylethylamine). PEA is found in the brain and it became known as a 'love molecule'. However, in truth, cacao only contains a trace amount of PEA and PEA is rapidly broken down by monoamine oxidase B. Interestingly, there are reporrts of people achieving powerful highs by taking large amounts of phenylethylamine along with MAO-B inhibitors like selegiline:http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/414337-Too-much-Phenylethylamine-(PEA)  Phenylethylamine is almost identical in structure to amphetamine.

UPDATE: I just came across an interesting claim that states that the chemical analyses of cacao haven't been very good and one researcher identified 7 closely related phenethylamines in cacao. However, as you can see, the speaker is a complete loser and he asks the cameraman to turn off the camera: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIr5WSwFNno


In one interview I remarked that chocolate was loaded with PEA...This became the focus of an article in The New York Times, which was then taken up by the wire services, then by magazine free-lancers, and evolved into the chocolate theory of love.

Michael R. Liebowitz, M.D. The Chemistry of Love, 1984, pages 99-100


More info on the origin of this myth: Chocolate, love and myth-information. Mary Lou Williams, M. Ed. Fort Myers Beach Observer Feb 12, 2009

Evidence for cacao's PEA content: 2-Phenylethylamine, a constituent of chocolate and wine, causes mitochondrial complex-I inhibition, generation of hydroxyl radicals and depletion of striatal biogenic amines leading to psycho-motor dysfunctions in Balb/c mice. T Sengupta KP. Neurochemistry International. 11/2010; 57(6):637-46. DOI: 10.1016/j.neuint.2010.07.013. DOWNLOAD


Another substance present in chocolate is phenylethylamine, which is also found in low concentrations in the brain. Phenylethylamine releases dopamine and therefore acts in the same way as amphetamines. One might predict that it is this which is ‘addictive’. Studies have demonstrated that 2-3g of phenylethylamine is needed to have anti-depressant properties, but a 50g bar of chocolate contains only a third of a milligram. Moreover, phenylethylamine is broken down readily by monoamine oxidase, so a monoamine oxidase inhibitor would be needed to stop it being broken down in the digestive system.

British Nutrition Foundation conference report. Stimulating thoughts: caffeine and food. BNF Nutrition Bulletin. 23, Winter, 1998, 226-233. DOWNLOAD


The PEA entry in PIHKAL (Sasha Shulgin, 1990) supports the fact that an MAOI is needed to make PEA work: http://isomerdesign.com/PiHKAL/read.php?domain=pk&id=142


Cannabinoids


Believe it or not, cacao contains N-acylethanolamines, which are classified as cannabinoids. They're found in the fat portion of cacao, so cacao powder, which, I believe, is partially defatted, will contain reduced amounts of them. It is reported that they boost levels of the brain's own natural cannabinoid, anandamide, however, once again, the article calls the quantities present into question.

Further experiments are necessary to determine whether the concentrations of unsaturated N-acylethanolamines measured in our study are sufficient to produce these biological effects in vivo.

Di Tomaso E, Beltramo M, Piomelli D, (1996), Brain cannabinoids in chocolate. Nature, 382: 677-678, doi:10.1038/382677a0. DOWNLOAD


Caffeine & Theobromine

Cacao contains these two chemicals. Both these chemicals are very similar in structure to each other. Based on my reading, theobromine is found in greater quantities than caffeine. I'm not going to bother citing that, right now. Caffeine is well established as a central nervous system stimulant that produces noticeable effects. Here's a clinical trial where theobromine was tested on volunteers:

Baggott, M.J., E. Childs, A.B. Hart, E. de Bruin, A.A. Palmer, J.E. Wilkinson, and H. de Wit (2013). Psychopharmacology of theobromine in healthy volunteers. Psychopharmacology, 228, 109-118. DOWNLOAD


Salsinol


The isoquinolinoid salsolinol (17) has been investigated extensively over the last ten years. This compound is found in chocolate and is derived from the cocoa bean and the seeds of Theobroma cacao L. The addictive properties of chocolate have been ascribed to the dopaminergic activity of this compound,19 which also occurs as an endogenous catechol in the brain. (17) is dopaminergic at the D2 receptor and has a protective effect against neurodegeneration.20

19. Melzig MF, Putscher I, Henklein P, In vitro pharmacological activity of the tetrahydroisoquinoline salsolinol present in products from Theobroma cacao L. like cocoa and chocolate, J Ethnopharmacol 73:153–159, 2000.

20. Antkiewicz-Michaluk L, Wardas J, Michaluk J, Protective effect of 1-methyl-1,2,3,4-tetrahydroisoquinoline against dopaminergic neurodegeneration in the extrapyramidal structures produced by intracerebral injection of rotenone, Int J Neuropsychopharmacology 7:153–163, 2004.

Source: Selected Topics in the Chemistry of Natural Products. Raphael Ikan. 2008. P. 406


:justdontknow: That's that.

If anyone wants to experiment with cacao as a psychoactive, I recommend buying good quality whole beans. 'Cacao butter' is also available.

Edited by s240779 (11/19/22 12:20 PM)

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Offlinej_db69
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Re: Cacao and psilocybin: an effective combination or myth? [Re: s240779]
    #20842110 - 11/15/14 05:33 PM (9 years, 3 months ago)

Thanks for the post and sources :thumbup:

Just wanted to add from my experience in regards to migraines:

Cacao is one of the most reliable ways to trigger a migraine. 
Psilocybin is one of the most reliable ways to abort a migraine :wink:

Might be mindful of blood pressure for those that are sensitive to vasoconstrictors and dialators as well..


--------------------
One does not become enlightened by imagining figures of light, but by making the dark conscious.
--Jung

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Invisiblepablokabute
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Re: Cacao and psilocybin: an effective combination or myth? [Re: a-bram-boos] * 1
    #21026895 - 12/26/14 03:10 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

In the Amazon, cocoa is labeled as a 'spirit food' used in conjunction with fasting, dancing, chanting, pursuing ecstatIc states, and participating in yage rituals.


--------------------

Fermented Mushrooms!!
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OfflinePandemoon
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Re: Cacao and psilocybin: an effective combination or myth? [Re: pablokabute]
    #21027033 - 12/26/14 06:17 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

I've got some books about psychoactive plants describing cacao as a stimulant and euphoriant.
Cacao contains caffeine, theobromine, phenethylamine, tyramine and tryptamines as serotonin as well as anandamide (our own endogenous cannabinoid neurotransmitter).
Some indigenous peoples seem to add mushrooms (and other ingeredients) to their very own psychoactive "hot chocolate".*

I've been thinking about this for quite a while. I'm pretty sure chocolate or cacao in general synergizes VERY well with cannabis..

One could try boiling a potent mushroom tea (a quater of a cup per dose) added to a self made hot chocolate, while continuing drinking cacao during the trip.


*source: german version of the encyclopedia of psychoactive plants, by Rätsch
-

Edited by Pandemoon (12/26/14 06:18 AM)

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Offlines240779
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Re: Cacao and psilocybin: an effective combination or myth? [Re: Pandemoon]
    #21027039 - 12/26/14 06:25 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Pandemoon said:
I've got some books about psychoactive plants describing cacao as a stimulant and euphoriant.
Cacao contains caffeine, theobromine, phenethylamine, tyramine and tryptamines as serotonin as well as anandamide (our own endogenous cannabinoid neurotransmitter).




You should read my above post in this thread. Also, neither serotonin or dopamine can cross the BBB. I can add references for that statement later.

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