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Offlinesmalltalk_canceled
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Re: Psilocybe hispanica [Re: covertjoy]
    #28495845 - 10/07/23 08:06 PM (7 months, 7 days ago)

its all a mess


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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: Psilocybe hispanica [Re: smalltalk_canceled] * 2
    #28495997 - 10/07/23 10:35 PM (7 months, 6 days ago)

A friend ITS sequenced Psilocybe hispanica that he got from someone (VR or something) and it was a 100% match for Psilocybe fimetaria.

I also saw a photo of P. hispanica that the person who discovered it took, and it looked just like P. fimetaria, so I think that's what these are.

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OfflineWorkmanV
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Re: Psilocybe hispanica [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #28496002 - 10/07/23 10:43 PM (7 months, 6 days ago)

Hmmm, it does look identical. I'll get my sample tested and report back. I also have some fimentaria and liniformans to grow out and compare.


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Offlineel gordo
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Re: Psilocybe hispanica [Re: Workman]
    #28496244 - 10/08/23 08:18 AM (7 months, 6 days ago)

without knowing it, just found some of them a couple of days ago....

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/28494130/page/1

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Re: Psilocybe hispanica [Re: el gordo] * 1
    #28496427 - 10/08/23 11:28 AM (7 months, 6 days ago)

It is very likely that P.hispanica is really P.fimetaria. I am in contact with the finder of the holotype and will hopefully get a few sequences of 'P.hispanica; in a month or two. The pictures that Alan refers to above were taken by this same person.

However, I think it is not impossible that it may be a distinct taxon. I have the ITS and TEF1 sequences from the P.hispanica holotype; the TEF1 doesn't really match to anything and the ITS is too incomplete to get anything very useful from it. The holotype was collected in the 1990s, so a fresh 'P.hispanica' from the original collector should confirm whether or not the species is a synonym. P.fimetaria certainly grows throughout the Pyrenees, but perhaps there is another species hiding there? I will update later in the year once we (hopefully) know!


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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: Psilocybe hispanica [Re: Workman]
    #28497382 - 10/09/23 08:45 AM (7 months, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Workman said:
Hmmm, it does look identical. I'll get my sample tested and report back. I also have some fimentaria and liniformans to grow out and compare.





I've put P. fimetaria and P. liniformans sequences in Genbank for comparison.

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Offlinefireinyoface
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Re: Psilocybe hispanica [Re: Workman] * 1
    #28499448 - 10/10/23 09:55 PM (7 months, 4 days ago)

From a print from a friend named HB from germany, Hispanica (?) growing outside in the bay area CA, will post updates

Edited by fireinyoface (10/10/23 10:40 PM)

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Re: Psilocybe hispanica [Re: fireinyoface] * 1
    #28499682 - 10/11/23 06:33 AM (7 months, 3 days ago)

Reviewing this thread and it's pictures, it seems very evident to me that the fimetaria and hispanica is either the same, or extremely closely related.

Hopefully this theory can now be used to actually check/find out

Fimetaria/Hispanica from today, surviving from 2022






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Edited by smalltalk_canceled (10/14/23 03:00 PM)

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Invisiblemurderlabz
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Re: Psilocybe hispanica [Re: smalltalk_canceled] * 1
    #28499825 - 10/11/23 09:28 AM (7 months, 3 days ago)

:popcorn:

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Offlinesmalltalk_canceled
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Re: Psilocybe hispanica [Re: murderlabz] * 4
    #28504415 - 10/14/23 02:26 PM (7 months, 7 hours ago)

For posterity Im linking up a selection of the then cold fruiting hispanica fruiting "outside" as a flowerpot, fruiitng in a cold garage, and fruiting placed outside in fall, and fruiting from one year to another although very sparsely so

this, evidentily, and ofc a bit to my dismay, was psilocybe hispanica all along:








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Edited by smalltalk_canceled (10/14/23 02:31 PM)

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InvisibleInocybe
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Re: Psilocybe hispanica [Re: smalltalk_canceled] * 3
    #28515555 - 10/23/23 05:26 PM (6 months, 22 days ago)

Hey guys!

I grew the suppossedly hispanica from the spores i got from the user Poison Drink, who got them from Captain future (and i think he got them from Workman?). I assumed the ID was done correctly by the original collector even though I have slight doubts as unlike the original description the stipe doesn’t bruise blue and the fruits also show some veil (the key in Noordeloos monography about Strophariaceae s.l says it lacks veil).




I also managed to find an article from 2006 in a spanish magazine where someone talks about this species being found apparently in Euskadi (a región near Pyrinees but not as high), but seeing the description, the spore pics and the macroscopical details (like the cap resembling more like P. semilanceata) i got a bit confused, cause it doesn’t look like the supossedly P. hispanica from most grows posted on Shroomery. But on the other hand it is pretty common that indoor or cultivated mushrooms end looking really different from wild ones, so…

The following pics and description are from the specimens that were sent by the author of the article to Guzman for confirmation and also the same ones from which the genbank sequence KC669289.1 came from (Fernandez-Sasia's voucher). The suppossedly hispanica imo shows more resemblance to P. semilanceata. Afaik P. semilanceata doesn't fruit from dung, but it is not rare that some fruits can be found fruiting through dung cause the mycelium being underneath the poo. Could that have lead to the false asumption that it was a different species (cause the collector thought it was not semilanceata cause of dung)?



If you search this hispanica sequence in genbank (KC669289.1), after running blast you see a 100% match with P. semilanceata sequences, so probably this article was written upon a misidentification made by the author of the article and later also (mistakenly?)ratified by Guzmán.

It also gets my attention the spore micrographs which show a highly truncated germ pore that i think i couldn’t see on the spores from my grow, but perhaps it is caused by the low quality of my microscope which causes some aberration?

All that said, i had samples from my grow sequenced and results in genbank apparently matched it with one of the P. fimetaria  sequence uploaded to genbank. So perhaps the "hispanica" i grew is just P. fimetaria and either there was a misidentification and the true hispanica keeps lost and waiting to be found again or it is just that both are synonyms? But which species could be synonyms? P. hispanica and P. fimetaria or P. hispanica and P. semilanceata?
:badtrip:

P. liniformans is easily distinguished by the gelatinous lamella edge, at least on fresh specimens, idk if dried samples when rehydrated show that elasticity (i have found P. liniformans in NW spain and in north portugal too and in same dung some fruits have elastic lamella edge and other bigger fruits from the same dung not having that separable edge when fresh). I wonder if that elasticity is lost when fruits mature or what, but it should be possible to check under microscope the gelatinous layer with cresyl blue i guess. I should check the samples i keep in my fungarium cause in one dung sample i found fruits that resembled to me more of fimetaria (showing convex cap with acute umbo and what seems like veil with spores) and others more like liniformans (i could send some samples to you Alan if you want to check them or sequence). The ones that were consistent with the liniformans description were sequenced and matched with the liniformans sequence that Alan found on Netherlands few years ago.


Guzmán said that P. hispanica is different from fimetaria cause hispanica lacks veil and has larger cheilocystidia, and different from semilanceata cause of the acute umbonate pileus... but seeing the grows from P. semilanceata that shows that unusual morphology on the cap, it seems like morphology can be a bit wobbly sometimes when it comes to name new species, as it can show some variation due to causes that can be overlooked (i.e. environmental conditions). It happened with Amanita porrinensis which was described as new species in 1980 and found in two subsequent years and never again... only once time more in italy apparently. After sequencing the samples, it was said to be a form of Amanita phalloides.


Edited by Inocybe (10/24/23 02:34 AM)

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OfflineWorkmanV
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Re: Psilocybe hispanica [Re: Inocybe] * 4
    #28516577 - 10/24/23 01:12 PM (6 months, 21 days ago)

Nice work. I've got some P. fimetaria from the Netherlands growing side by side with the hispanica outdoors and they do look different, for whatever that is worth. Hispanica on the left, fimetaria on the right. Hispanica fruited first so it seems to do better in warmer weather and is more robust. But the fimetaria was growing on a less than ideal substrate, so I need to start again to get better data. If they are both fimetaria, the hispanica seems to be the better variety for cultivation.



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Offlinesmalltalk_canceled
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Re: Psilocybe hispanica [Re: Workman]
    #28516763 - 10/24/23 03:48 PM (6 months, 21 days ago)

i never sent you a print workman, what out out what i did is still in interest, if anything?

I was able to print the 2023 fruit. i have one inky print of it

and i believe there could be 3 mre print from the original "fimetaria" now turned hispanica collection

at this point


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Edited by smalltalk_canceled (10/24/23 03:51 PM)

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OfflineDH42
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Re: Psilocybe hispanica [Re: Inocybe]
    #28516873 - 10/24/23 05:05 PM (6 months, 21 days ago)

Inocybe, great write up, thank you for sharing that!

The genbank sequence KC669289.1 is, as it does appear, P.semilanceata. I have discussed this with Fernandez-Sasia. P.semilanceata fruiting underneath dung can produce some strange and confusing results, particularly in giving the illusion of it actually growing from dung in the same way that any obligately coprophilous fungus would.

Guzman's description of P.hispanica is faulty. I am in contact with the finder of the original holotype and hopefully something useful will be sequenced this year relating to it. P.hispanica's taxonomic position is certainly confusing, and we can't rush to synonymise it with P.fimetaria or P.liniformans prematurely.

Also, the species all display some level of polymorphism when cultivated artificially, which is interesting!


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Have a look at the subreddit r/fimetaria!

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Offlinefireinyoface
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Re: Psilocybe hispanica [Re: DH42] * 2
    #28519180 - 10/26/23 05:34 PM (6 months, 19 days ago)










Here's an update

Edited by fireinyoface (10/30/23 05:43 AM)

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OfflineDH42
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Re: Psilocybe hispanica [Re: fireinyoface] * 1
    #28519756 - 10/27/23 03:45 AM (6 months, 18 days ago)

Lovely pics of...Psilocybe fimetaria


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Have a look at the subreddit r/fimetaria!

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Offlinefireinyoface
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Re: Psilocybe hispanica [Re: DH42]
    #28519921 - 10/27/23 09:15 AM (6 months, 18 days ago)

It was given to me as Hispanica but I will just refer to it as Fimetaria from now on! I might send it in for sequencing but I think its Fimetaria also.

Edited by fireinyoface (10/27/23 11:01 AM)

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Re: Psilocybe hispanica [Re: fireinyoface]
    #28520548 - 10/27/23 08:23 PM (6 months, 18 days ago)

My 2023 "hispanica" spore printed a decidely black or dark, over brown

So when Captain future was sending out spore prints named ps hispanica

to my experience faint brown or black, pitch in here

where did he get his classification from to call it hispanica, instead of fimetaria? at the point he did?

is the swedish artsdatabanken.se reporting ps hispanica or ps fimetaria? when it says there are 6 observations there? (gov)

what does the literature or the experts so gathered say about the following:

1: was ps hispanica a cold fruiter
2: was there ever a fimetaria _before_ hispanica, or was fimetaria identified at the same time or later than hispanica
3: what is the history of the spore colour of fimetaria and hispanica
  and is any concentration of these even wildly possible to be mistaken for semilanceta
4: if early accounts of fimetaria and hispanica had dissimiliar, nonconcucrrent, truly absolutely differentiable from each other spore colours, where is this accounted and what are the proposed spore colours of fimetaria, and hispanica?


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Edited by smalltalk_canceled (10/27/23 08:24 PM)

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Offlinefireinyoface
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Re: Psilocybe hispanica [Re: smalltalk_canceled]
    #28520637 - 10/27/23 09:33 PM (6 months, 18 days ago)

Okay I did a little digging and found out my friend from Germany got his print from FSE also, who got their spores from VL, who got his spores from captain future! So what I have in the above pictures is also the same as captain future and VL and anyone else who has spores sourced from there.

https://www.freespore.com/psilocybe-hispanica.html

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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: Psilocybe hispanica [Re: Inocybe]
    #28521875 - 10/29/23 12:53 AM (6 months, 16 days ago)

Quote:

All that said, i had samples from my grow sequenced and results in genbank apparently matched it with one of the P. fimetaria  sequence uploaded to genbank. So perhaps the "hispanica" i grew is just P. fimetaria and either there was a misidentification and the true hispanica keeps lost and waiting to be found again or it is just that both are synonyms?




I think Psilocybe hispanica and Psilocybe fimetaria are the same thing, and Psilocybe fimetaria was published first so that is the name I use.

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