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OfflineLogicaL ChaosM
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Relation Between Physical Characteristics and Potency? * 1
    #21009626 - 12/21/14 08:50 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

So in another thread here: http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/21006614

The OP complains about low potency of San Pedro. These claims are perplexing cause my experience of San Pedro is great, great potency.

Here's my decently-potent San Pedro that came from my friend's Dad's hippie friend.





Then i was looking online at eBay, and this type looks different:

(Mod Edit: Had to remove non sponsor link to conform with the forum guidelines and rules.)

Any relationship between physical features and potency?

Thanks,
- LC


--------------------
"What you must understand is that your physical dimension affects everyone in the higher dimensions as well. All things are interconnected. All things are One. Therefore, if one dimension is broken or out of balance, then all other dimensions will experience repercussions." - Pleiadian Prophecy 2020 The New Golden Age by James Carwin

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Edited by karode13 (12/22/14 12:51 AM)

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Invisiblezed240
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Re: Relation Between Physical Characteristics and Potency? [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
    #21010185 - 12/21/14 10:53 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Your cactus is NOT a PC. The one in the auction you listed is a PC.

PC is usually weak but can still do the job if you use enough and it's been growing in the right conditions.

Other pachanoi is often stronger than PC but not always. Growing conditions and genetics both play a big role in the production of alkaloids in trichocereus.

So to answer your question, yes and no. PC can be distinguished by it's physical characteristics and it looks different to other pachanoi. But other pachanoi that is not PC may also be weak, (although often it is stronger than PC but that is not always the case).


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OfflineLogicaL ChaosM
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Re: Relation Between Physical Characteristics and Potency? [Re: zed240]
    #21010255 - 12/21/14 11:08 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Wait, my picture i posted is not a San Pedro?

Or wait, im i confusing PC = SP?


--------------------
"What you must understand is that your physical dimension affects everyone in the higher dimensions as well. All things are interconnected. All things are One. Therefore, if one dimension is broken or out of balance, then all other dimensions will experience repercussions." - Pleiadian Prophecy 2020 The New Golden Age by James Carwin

PROJECT BLUE BOOK ANALYSIS! (312 pages!) | Psychedelics & UFOs | Ready to Contact UFOs? | The Source on Mushrooms:shroomeryhead:| Trippy Gematrix | Dj TeknoLogical | Fentanyl Test Kits R.I.P. Big Worm :tombstone: || The Start of the Ascension Process was 2020. Welcome to the Next Great Era of Earth 🌎🌍🌏                                                         
:sunny::bliss::mushroom2: Oregon Eclipse Festival 2017 :: Aug 19th - 21st :: Pure Paradise :mushroom2::bliss::sunny: :rainbowdrink: Very Effective LSA Extraction Tek :rainbowdrink: | 💧 Advanced Cold Water LSA Extraction Method 💧 | :cacti::bongload: Mescajuana - Mescaline with Marijuana | DMT Dab Bongs | UFO Technology! :shpongle:Shpongle:shpongle:   

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InvisibleGreenFingers
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Re: Relation Between Physical Characteristics and Potency? [Re: LogicaL Chaos] * 1
    #21010396 - 12/21/14 11:54 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

PC= Predominate cultivar. Which is one found widely in USA and the majority of the time is very weak. You do have a San pedro he's just saying it's not the typical one you'd find in big box stores.

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OfflineLogicaL ChaosM
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Re: Relation Between Physical Characteristics and Potency? [Re: GreenFingers]
    #21010412 - 12/21/14 11:59 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Ohhhh. Ok. Got it.

So is there any pattern of San pedros that have "fat ribs" like mine and are also potent? Or is that not a good way to determine potency?

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OfflineRiparianZoneJunky
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Re: Relation Between Physical Characteristics and Potency? [Re: LogicaL Chaos] * 1
    #21010443 - 12/22/14 12:12 AM (9 years, 4 months ago)

PC is all the same clone, and that clone runs on the low end of the potency scale, sometimes in the right conditions it can produce well, and you might get really unlucky and get a weak specimen of a non-PC pachanoi, but the odds are that if you have a non-PC pachonoi it is probably stronger than the average PC.  If your hippie friend has tested that clone and knows it is a good mescaline producer then hang on to it and try to propagate it as much as possible, it is probably a good deal stronger than the majority of San Pedro on the market.  Don't hack it up and eat it until you have a few cuttings going and some decent quantity and you'll be set for life.  The only way to test potency is to do chemical analysis, do an extraction or bio-assay, even the same clone can vary based on conditions etc. 


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Edited by RiparianZoneJunky (12/22/14 12:14 AM)

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Invisiblezed240
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Re: Relation Between Physical Characteristics and Potency? [Re: RiparianZoneJunky]
    #21010888 - 12/22/14 03:37 AM (9 years, 4 months ago)

I apologize for not being as clear as I would have liked, (and should have been), although the post you linked did heavily mention PC = predominant cultivar a number of times. I think the next couple of posts cleared up the PC vs SP thing for you pretty well though.  :whathesaid:  :whatshesaid:  :werd:

You own such a nice looking cactus and the way you asked I guess I thought you must have been aware of the whole PC = predominant cultivar situation and the range of other T pachanoi varieties that exist that I kind of answered the question slightly off how I should have.

But like they said, nice non-common Trichocereus pachanoi that you have and you should grow a good number of clones out and make sure it's sustainable and the genetics go on.  :smile:

Top stuff.  :seriousthumbsup:


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~~~    :mushroom2: touch my ring :mushroom2:    ~~~

Edited by zed240 (12/22/14 03:56 AM)

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Invisiblezed240
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Re: Relation Between Physical Characteristics and Potency? [Re: zed240]
    #21010905 - 12/22/14 03:54 AM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Here are some pics from the auction OP mentioned. (uploaded so other people can see the visual comparison between OPs cactus and the ones he was saying might be weaker)



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Re: Relation Between Physical Characteristics and Potency? [Re: zed240]
    #21011203 - 12/22/14 07:29 AM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Ok, I am admittedly a horrible cacti IDer, what are the telltales you look for to determine non PC or PC? I've read a couple other threads on the topic of how to ID, but still apparently can't make a good distinction... is there any "dead giveaway"?


--------------------
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'Where do you want to go?' was his response.
'I don't know', Alice answered.
'Then', said the cat, 'it doesn't matter.'




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Re: Relation Between Physical Characteristics and Potency? [Re: LogicaL Chaos] * 1
    #21011243 - 12/22/14 07:58 AM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

LogicaL Chaos said:
So in another thread here: http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/21006614

The OP complains about low potency of San Pedro. These claims are perplexing cause my experience of San Pedro is great, great potency.

Here's my decently-potent San Pedro that came from my friend's Dad's hippie friend.





Well of course your experiences have been great.  The problem is getting a good source, once your hippy friend finds 1 good cactus, he can grow it forever.  The people complaining are buying them from a random source and hoping they are active.  That is a sexy cactus, make sure that someday someone tells a story about how they got their potent cactus from their hippy friend, who is you.  :thumbup:


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OfflineLogicaL ChaosM
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Re: Relation Between Physical Characteristics and Potency? [Re: mandrin13]
    #21012096 - 12/22/14 12:55 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Ya, right about the pics, they do look similar. I guess its not a good indication.

Wait, i become the hippy friend in a future story?! Whooooa :omgz:

That would be weird. The legend of the potent San Pedro continues into the future....

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OfflineRiparianZoneJunky
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Re: Relation Between Physical Characteristics and Potency? [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
    #21012605 - 12/22/14 03:16 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

LogicaL Chaos said:
Ya, right about the pics, they do look similar. I guess its not a good indication.

Wait, i become the hippy friend in a future story?! Whooooa :omgz:

That would be weird. The legend of the potent San Pedro continues into the future....



Potent San Pedro's not a legend as long as you know how to tell PC from the real deal.  :shrug:


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OfflineLogicaL ChaosM
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Re: Relation Between Physical Characteristics and Potency? [Re: RiparianZoneJunky]
    #21013079 - 12/22/14 05:00 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Ok, tell u elaborate how you tell a potent San Pedro from a weak PC San Pedro?

Or is the only way to tell is to ingest the cacti?

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Invisiblemodern.shaman
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Re: Relation Between Physical Characteristics and Potency? [Re: LogicaL Chaos] * 2
    #21013092 - 12/22/14 05:02 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)



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OfflineLogicaL ChaosM
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Re: Relation Between Physical Characteristics and Potency? [Re: modern.shaman]
    #21013409 - 12/22/14 06:02 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Wow, thank you so much! That link is EXACTLY what i wanted to see. 5 healthy pedros coming to you :thumbup:

I noticed a pattern from the pictures. San pedro from Ecuador had a lighter green color, smoother ribs, fuller ribs (not skinny, more vein-like), pointer "tip" and smaller spines in general.

The PC weak San Pedro had darker green colors, rougher ribs, skinnier ribs in general, a rounder "tip" (similar to my posted one), and larger spines.

I think the most striking features is the color and shape.

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Re: Relation Between Physical Characteristics and Potency? [Re: modern.shaman]
    #21013436 - 12/22/14 06:06 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Great link, thanks!


--------------------
One day Alice came to a fork in the road and saw a Cheshire cat in a tree.
'Which road do I take?' she asked.
'Where do you want to go?' was his response.
'I don't know', Alice answered.
'Then', said the cat, 'it doesn't matter.'




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Invisiblemodern.shaman
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Re: Relation Between Physical Characteristics and Potency? [Re: cowsRmeat]
    #21013702 - 12/22/14 06:54 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Your spot on about the ribs but the color is variable depending on nutrients and amount of sunlight the cactus receives.


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Re: Relation Between Physical Characteristics and Potency? [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
    #21013971 - 12/22/14 07:59 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

LogicaL Chaos said:
Wow, thank you so much! That link is EXACTLY what i wanted to see. 5 healthy pedros coming to you :thumbup:

I noticed a pattern from the pictures. San pedro from Ecuador had a lighter green color, smoother ribs, fuller ribs (not skinny, more vein-like), pointer "tip" and smaller spines in general.

The PC weak San Pedro had darker green colors, rougher ribs, skinnier ribs in general, a rounder "tip" (similar to my posted one), and larger spines.

I think the most striking features is the color and shape.




Real pedros have pretty variable spines.  They may also be longer than those shown in that link.  In general, PC all have the exact same spines, if the spines look different then it's not a PC.


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Re: Relation Between Physical Characteristics and Potency? [Re: LogicaL Chaos] * 1
    #21014151 - 12/22/14 08:42 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

LogicaL Chaos said:
Ya, right about the pics, they do look similar. I guess its not a good indication.

Wait, i become the hippy friend in a future story?! Whooooa :omgz:

That would be weird. The legend of the potent San Pedro continues into the future....





Correct, and dont forget to pick up a copy of the sports almanac 1950-2000 while you are at it.



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Offlineintelligentlife
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Re: Relation Between Physical Characteristics and Potency? [Re: LogicaL Chaos] * 1
    #21014945 - 12/22/14 11:33 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

LogicaL Chaos said:
Wow, thank you so much! That link is EXACTLY what i wanted to see. 5 healthy pedros coming to you :thumbup:

I noticed a pattern from the pictures. San pedro from Ecuador had a lighter green color, smoother ribs, fuller ribs (not skinny, more vein-like), pointer "tip" and smaller spines in general.

The PC weak San Pedro had darker green colors, rougher ribs, skinnier ribs in general, a rounder "tip" (similar to my posted one), and larger spines.

I think the most striking features is the color and shape.




Text below isn't 100% factual, just my toughs and ideas... No need to take all text as even close to true, if I don't write so I know something. There are lots of speculations underneath, no facts every word.

Basically those characteristics may vanish or increase, depends where plant have grown. Pics from Ecuadorian clones gives reference what some plant should be, but if you see pictures without you know habitat and climate where cactus have been grown, then pictures may fool very much, even experienced growers.. I know from fact I can't grow similar plants they grow in habitat, this should be known as well as anyone who live enough far away from their natural habitat. I bet If one clone will spread to every continent, to very south and very north from very east to very west.. That plant probably have own characteristics depends where it grows. IF one clone can be send around world, then years later take picture from it. I am sure those pics doesn't show identical plants and many would say they are not same clone.:strokebeard:

Those all patterns can be "reversed" simply via climate change(or any change in growth condition)

Someone may grow indoors, using own fertilizers, artificial light(maybe natural light as extra) ..some grow outdoors and so on and so on.. LOTS of different habitat in theory.

Thing is, I am at arctic circle.. Basically most hostile environment for cactus, indoors and outdoors. I basically I have "wasted" years to even try get some regular decoration plants grow or stay alive more then one year.

I have had to create all environmental factors makes me easy to grow any kind of cacti. Step By step, mistake By mistake and failures after another.

I have one very much of a look-a-like PC. Especially to eye not trained to see difference of clones. Thing is, it's been grown from seed.. I got is as seedling from South America. So it's still not PC and so on.

Whole PC-term is kinda confusing, it have nothing to do with term San Pedro. Basically it's just short-term from those words "Predominant Cultivar, Predominant Clone" etcetera...

Basically there are lots of "PC Clones" of different species, still barely no one talks about they, they are not so popular species. For example some nursery may sell fast growing columnar along other nurseries, propagated by themselves and so on.. So in that matter all plants spread via cuttings around for decades and so on is basically "perdominant cultivar"

What confuses is, only in USA this cactus have been chosen(seems like it) to be grown in nurseries and spread forwards. It may have something to do with mescaline and actual protection to vendors so they don't sell illegal plant. (basically most cacti is illegal if judge and cops want so, but it's fictional stuff)

Reason why this one clone is spread around isn't yet to be known.. Maybe it tolerates better those southwestern climate in USA, or there are somekind of conspiracy about not spread "drug-plant" as ornament. Who the F knows is it GMO or not, or hybrid? (exact date when actual GMO:s have discovered and humans have been able to do so isn't so clear, it may have been possible at times when pachanoi have spread around USA as ornamental plant. Nurseries may just have want it because then they are not legally need to take resposibility how people use their plants, do they consume or not?  I don't believe that GMO-stuff, just cross my mind, it's possible, that PC Clone is just so distict from all. Hybrid may be more closer, but who the fuck knows for real? ..seems no one. It have been known it's mescaline plant as well as illegal peyote, but probably it's been found out content of mescaline vary so much "they" can spread non-mescaline plant around so it's not even close to illegal drug trafficking and sales. Don't take this text serious, just take it from point of view it's conspiracy.

I just wonder howcome this isn't spread as predominant cultivar clone elsewhere, and first of all, whole war on drugs and mescaline have been first banned in USA at firstplace..

There are more questons than answers with this.. You all should be able to look your own believes as well from the point of view don't believe what you believe, try think another way. Thinking and studying alone is very good to do with these plants. Read lots(all kind of published data), suspect the data to certain point till it's clear and ofc you have to be able to grow several specimens as adult(or see lots of adult specimens) to be able to ID plants from picture. It's still fact, not all trichs can be ID and everyone should be okey with that.

Americans seems to believe: There are only one San Pedro, the PC Pedro and it causes they dislike all t. pachanoi labels. Even tho I've find out those t. pachanoi label plants have been most potent ones.

Europeans seems to believe different way, there are no one pachanoi and most think pachanoi and peruvianus is same.

It's been clear Ecuador, Peru and Bolivia have their "own mescaline cactus form" ...from my point of view what I've seen. Ecuadorian pachanoi is kinda different from Peruvian pachanoi, locals tell always "take off big spikes" and some use very spiny plants as sacrament.

When I look species naming, only t. peruvianus and cuzcoensis have name indicating to location. Cusco name town in Peru, and ofc moutain highlands of Peru where trichs grow. I've been wonder howcome bridgesii isn't referred to bolivia in name? how come ecuadorian pachanoi haven't own name in taxonomy? ...Only peruvian trichocereus plants seems to be named as t. peruvianus, and I've read as well species named t. peruvianus var. cuzcoensis and t. cuzcoensis var. peruvianus.

Okay, forget that above.. When looking the obvious things; Bolivian sacrament cactus have own forms and characteristics. Ecuadorian sacrament have it's own characteristics and Peruvian sacraments have their own characteristics, and there are ofc exceptions in the rule: Some shamans use very odd, distinct clones we rarely even see in western world so not always characteristics indicates anything.. Also there are lot of different, but real bridgesii as well as different and real pachanoi.

From my point of view, I've discovered trichs may change characteristics very dramatically.. I mean you may even not know one plant turns different form at different climate and habitat. There are so much questions.

I know only these three states in south america have their own "sacred cactus" and that's why I've been become to conclusion do there have happened in taxonomy something what should not. Nothing is 100% secure and proof, nothing. It's okey to question everything, even your own strong believes.

Seems because of predominant cultivar clone have spread around USA, most Americans try avoid t. pachanoi no matter what it costs. Even the fact is there are very much different pachanoi. Spikes usually be there, depends what clone you have. More sun, bigger and more wanting spines. Same clone grown in shade goes very different compared to full sun. Also spikes will be different size or they disappear totally and comes back when plant receive more sun. Old aeroles doesn't usually have new spines much but this can be seen from new growth, more sun = bigger spines.

One clone I received from fellow shroomery mate, don't know exact what it is.. It turned to spineless cactus in my climate. Next summer show will t grow spines or not.. Bridgesii usually grow here one spine less but spine length doesn't seem effect so much to that how much direct sun or light they receive.

Peruvianus seems to be different from pachanoi (what I have read) about it's flowers, their base have said it's not so long compared to pachanoi. Still I would not try to focus so much the appearance of trichocereus.. Well it will tell us something but because humans will do mistakes, there is possibility we ID some species based on simple clone properties, not actual characteristics what comes to species. Peruvianus have said to have two central spines, Pachanoi said to be one. That's only difference probably.

There are lots of pachanoi's, grown from seeds picked from two spineless cactus but offspring may have one with big spines and one with no spines when they reach age of "maturity" what I mean by that word is, they change spine growth and form how they come from aerole. Seedlings tend to have +10spines per aerole, but as mature cactus it may have only few spines. I say these as "baby spines" ...from these spines only thing doesn't change is actual coloration of spines when they are young. Some t. pachanoi seem to have similar color spines when adult than bridgesii and some seems same than peruvianus.

But with wild collected seeds, it seems very rare spineless pachanoi have all offspring without spines. Some have clearly breed with more distinct cactus clone what comes to DNA and offspring will be very variable. In habitat it's very easy understand not even all seeds grow to mature plants compared to cultivated trichocereus.. So appearance isn't the factor, they survive because they just tolerate condition better or they have luck and germination happens just at right time, some seeds never find their spot or germinate and they die to drough(or anything) as very young age. Seems medical properties have caused people harvesting this species in habitat, very likely moved around and collected lots of specimens and then plant them to own backyard. Those basically grow among old human buildings anyway and in south america, it's very easy to find trichocereus in habitat near by old human build ruins.

Even some vendors doesn't believe there are lots of different species, they just sell them as separated species because they know what names sell and what doesn't. Trichocereus collection andd harvesting have been changed lots anyway.. Modern day plant can move thousands on miles in few days to new location, even in to hostile locations taking care by humans.

I have not seen much relation what comes to characteristics of cactus and it's properties as medicine. Some old hippies may have very spiny "cuzcos" as potent cactus. Not much time ago hippies were travelling around the world as well.. Also taking some specimens with them back to USA, bought from market place or from shamans.

Today mescaline-tourism is growing industry at south america, Western white people go there to do rituals and experience the plant. It's possible to get plant from these guys say they are "shamans" and so on.. As long as you have some money in your pocket, you can have cuttings from them as well.

Some people have had long time same clone what have been harvested over the years, maybe over the decades and from generation to another.. As medicine. Private south american sacrament use differs much from that what tourists experience.. Some shamans doesn't necessary want to even see western peoples pockets full of money asking experiences and cuttings, some don't care and ofc there are "fake shamans" as well to white people.

These people have just so variable characteristics plants used, no one even know actual species of them, instead it's been know as trichocereus. I have heard about one hippie say he have San Pedro, active one and characteristics is very much like t. cuzcoensis.

Just wanted to write my toughs, I've been doubt modern taxonomy among trichocereus, there may be species what actually is just subspecies of one cactus. Well I don't know it for sure but it's possibility as well. Also information from native people at south america doesn't correlate with taxonomy. Seems those people have more important the effects of medicine, not what their plants look like.

Maybe few percent of shamans even use spineless San Pedro anyway.

I can say almost 100% sure if I receive USA Predominant cultivar clone(what is impossible atm) it doesn't probably show characteristics what it look like in USA.

I don't know, one trichocereus may not even take new form here and another seems it turns completely to different plant. They even have variations with this. Plant number A may stay here as it is and plant number B may change it looks totally new trichocerus.

For example: southeast asian grown lophophora are rather balloon-shape cactus than cold climate grown lophophora goes more flat. They probably take water trough stomata from humidity at southeast asia where is very humid and hot year around. They may even can't grow lophophora similar to they grow in Mexico.

So far lophophora is easiest to keep as it is in my climate, dry climate here cause I have easy to grow lophophora  as ornament because I want them to be almos similar to habitat. It's obvious winter(and most of the time in year) here is dry what comes to humidity because of constant freeze cause humidity to freeze to any surface making very dry winter air, even indoors.

Well.. So my point were obvious; those characteristics of cactus will change sometimes dramatically, seems one cactus clone is more "prone" to climate change than another. This should be considered as well when growing trichocereus at location what have more sun and heat than they have in habitat, also habitat plant pictures shuld not be taken so serious when comparing to your own collection, if you don't live near the habitat of trichocereus. And not all clones, like i said, change form from climate or grow lights and other factors. Soil pH, fertilizers, minerals, all that kind in soil may effect to apperance as well as climate does. Climate will effect to most trichocereus plants, some clone take climate changes(or effects of it to cactus plant) radically, some doesn't at all.

I just have had to be able to create environment I can even grow cacti, maybe it have help me to know what is necessary for cactus and what isn't. I have changed my "habitat" very much  from time to time to find out what cause cactus feel good and what is pointless. Many warm weather growers have some habitat benefits they don't need to create themselves and therefore may not even know what in climate cause cactus grow good or bad.
"You have to go far away to see close enough":yesnod:


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Edited by intelligentlife (12/22/14 11:39 PM)

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