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DEJ
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Registered: 12/04/14
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Last seen: 9 years, 4 months
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Im serius this time
#21011252 - 12/22/14 08:01 AM (9 years, 4 months ago) |
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Why do you inoculate grains, let myseilium colinize 100% and then cover with 50/50 or some other spawn.
Why cant you inoculate 50/50 mixed with grains at the start?
I would assume the myceilium thrives on grains and then uses nutriants from spawn to sprout mushrooms. But why cant it all be done at once? Mix everything then inoculate.
Is this a dumb question? I dont want to get shit on for being curius.
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Violet



Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 4,205
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Re: Im serius this time [Re: DEJ]
#21011260 - 12/22/14 08:07 AM (9 years, 4 months ago) |
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There are some methods where you inoculate the final fruiting substrate, but those methods are fruiting from whatever container you're inoculating it in.
Methods like monotubs and trays that involve getting the substrate out of the jars would be very difficult to do that way, and there are only disadvantages, not advantages. Such as that the tiny bits of bulk substrate would be mostly consumed before trying to break the jar's contents up and get it into another container.
This tek is similar to what you're asking about. See how the material is pretty much stuck in the jar, and fruited from it.
-------------------- Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it! PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers The simplest, quickest, safest tek! For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers! • Violet's Teks and Posts •
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Kizzle
Misanthrope


Registered: 08/30/11
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Re: Im serius this time [Re: Violet]
#21011283 - 12/22/14 08:21 AM (9 years, 4 months ago) |
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You can do that. The reason I don't is because I have limited PC space so I have more room for spawn if I do the bulk substrate separately.
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DEJ
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Registered: 12/04/14
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Re: Im serius this time [Re: Kizzle]
#21011329 - 12/22/14 08:42 AM (9 years, 4 months ago) |
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Wow thanks violet and kizzle. That link was great. Thank you. Really what i was looking for. That is a cool tek. It really opens my mind to more questions. Do you think that tek could be done in bags aswell?
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Violet



Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 4,205
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Re: Im serius this time [Re: DEJ]
#21011352 - 12/22/14 08:49 AM (9 years, 4 months ago) |
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Well yeah, that's just called making "blocks" etc.
-------------------- Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it! PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers The simplest, quickest, safest tek! For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers! • Violet's Teks and Posts •
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DEJ
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Re: Im serius this time [Re: Violet]
#21011484 - 12/22/14 09:39 AM (9 years, 4 months ago) |
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Thanks. I thought so just double checking.
When the mushrooms grow directly from the top of mudafuckers jar does all the nutraints get jam packed in those few mushrooms to get bigger fruits?
If he smashed the jar would he have less giants and more growing from the sides. I hope you understand what im asking. I cant explaine for shit
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PsyCLown89
Shroomaloomed



Registered: 08/18/14
Posts: 789
Loc: South Africa
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Re: Im serius this time [Re: DEJ]
#21011490 - 12/22/14 09:41 AM (9 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
DEJ said: Thanks. I thought so just double checking.
When the mushrooms grow directly from the top of mudafuckers jar does all the nutraints get jam packed in those few mushrooms to get bigger fruits?
If he smashed the jar would he have less giants and more growing from the sides. I hope you understand what im asking. I cant explaine for shit
As far as I understand it. Less surface area, less pins, larger fruits as it can put more "energy" into the fewer fruits it is able to produce.
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,866
Loc: Canada
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Re: Im serius this time [Re: Violet]
#21011495 - 12/22/14 09:42 AM (9 years, 4 months ago) |
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I have actually become a real fan of Muda's bottles. Great for testing stuff, a little shorter timeframe from inoculation to fruits due to the elimination of spawn run. Yields have been quite good as well. I have a hunch that they are the equal if not better than spawning. I have the clone I ran a lot of bottles with doing the spawn run in a mini and many grain masters coming up. I should soon have some solid comparisons 
IMO the decrease in fruiting area does not detract from yields
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Violet



Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 4,205
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Quote:
Pastywhyte said: I have a hunch that they are the equal if not better than spawning.
Your theory on this? Let me guess - not destroying the original colony on the grains? ;]
-------------------- Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it! PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers The simplest, quickest, safest tek! For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers! • Violet's Teks and Posts •
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mycomattie


Registered: 11/15/12
Posts: 1,323
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Re: Im serius this time [Re: DEJ]
#21011519 - 12/22/14 09:51 AM (9 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
DEJ said: Why do you inoculate grains, let myseilium colinize 100% and then cover with 50/50 or some other spawn.
Spawn (grain spawn in this case) is used and added to a bulk substrate (higher yields, larger fruits) since every grain, when crumbled, is essentially an inoculation point. The more inoculation points, the faster the bulk substrate (CVG, manure, starw, etc.) with colonize; minimizing the chance of contamination, since the mycelium will have a head start on competing fungi, molds, bacteria - this is especially important since many contaminants are more aggressive colonizers than the mycelium you're probably growing. Unlike spawn, the bulk substrate is pasteurized, not sterilized.
Why cant you inoculate 50/50 mixed with grains at the start?
Most likely the spores won't germinate, and most likely even if they did, competing contaminants would outrun the mycelium you were trying to grow.
I would assume the myceilium thrives on grains and then uses nutriants from spawn to sprout mushrooms. But why cant it all be done at once? Mix everything then inoculate.
Check out Muda's Bottle Tek - maybe that's something you'd be interested in, I've read good things from reputable growers on the Tek 
Is this a dumb question? I dont want to get shit on for being curius.
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DEJ
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Re: Im serius this time [Re: Violet]
#21011915 - 12/22/14 11:50 AM (9 years, 4 months ago) |
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Thanks allot guys. Really appresiate the time you take to teach a noob somthing new.
What do you mean pastywhite?
Quote:
Pastywhyte said: I have actually become a real fan of Muda's bottles. Great for testing stuff, a little shorter timeframe from inoculation to fruits due to the elimination of spawn run. Yields have been quite good as well. I have a hunch that they are the equal if not better than spawning. I have the clone I ran a lot of bottles with doing the spawn run in a mini and many grain masters coming up. I should soon have some solid comparisons 
IMO the decrease in fruiting area does not detract from yields 
Do you get more flushs then? Or is the equivlent in bigger mushrooms compared to flushs?
And i to have been wondering what happens if you dont break up myceium in colinizing stages. Have not researched this. It makes sense to keep as a whole but thats just my logic. I have no idea.
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Wormi
Quiet Cultivator


Registered: 10/29/14
Posts: 278
Last seen: 5 years, 23 days
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Are you comparing the BE of the bottle vs the BE of bulk?
Isnt bulk going to naturally produce better BE because of the more fruits you get to the weight of the sub?
also to answer your question, we spawn to grain because the environment is easier to control.
If you spawn straight to pasteurized 50/50, tams will take over before your spores germinate. Also, there are extremely few inoculation points.
when you spawn to grain, you are able to set up an environment for success, for the myc to thrive. Then when it is fully colonized, you can introduce it to a substrate. It will spread much faster due to the bunches of inoculation points. Also, since the myc has already colonized it will take over the sub before contaminants set in.
I'm sure it was said above. Just my 2c
-------------------- An old man and his grandson are sitting by the fire outside the tepee, wrapped in furs and gazing into the leaping flames. High on a snowy ridge, a wolf howls at the moon and another answers from far away. Soon after, the old man removes the pipe from his mouth. ‘Grandson,’ he says. ‘There are two wolves inside you. One is white and the other is black.’ ‘What are they doing there, Grandfather?’ asks the wide-eyed boy. ‘They are fighting each other,’ says the old man. The boy considers this, then asks, ‘Why are they white and black?’ ‘The white one is your love, your peace and your truth. The black one is your fear, your anger and your lies.’ The fire crackles and sparks flare in the night. The wolf on the ridge howls again and the old man puffs contentedly on his pipe. Finally, the boy says, ‘Which one will win, Grandfather?’ ‘Ah,’ says the old man, removing the pipe once more. ‘The one that wins is the one that you feed.’
Edited by Wormi (12/22/14 11:58 AM)
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Wormi
Quiet Cultivator


Registered: 10/29/14
Posts: 278
Last seen: 5 years, 23 days
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Re: Im serius this time [Re: DEJ]
#21011946 - 12/22/14 12:00 PM (9 years, 4 months ago) |
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you break it up because every grain serves as a point for the mycelium to grow from. Naturally the more innculation points you have, the faster the spawn run
-------------------- An old man and his grandson are sitting by the fire outside the tepee, wrapped in furs and gazing into the leaping flames. High on a snowy ridge, a wolf howls at the moon and another answers from far away. Soon after, the old man removes the pipe from his mouth. ‘Grandson,’ he says. ‘There are two wolves inside you. One is white and the other is black.’ ‘What are they doing there, Grandfather?’ asks the wide-eyed boy. ‘They are fighting each other,’ says the old man. The boy considers this, then asks, ‘Why are they white and black?’ ‘The white one is your love, your peace and your truth. The black one is your fear, your anger and your lies.’ The fire crackles and sparks flare in the night. The wolf on the ridge howls again and the old man puffs contentedly on his pipe. Finally, the boy says, ‘Which one will win, Grandfather?’ ‘Ah,’ says the old man, removing the pipe once more. ‘The one that wins is the one that you feed.’
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DEJ
Stranger


Registered: 12/04/14
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Last seen: 9 years, 4 months
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Re: Im serius this time [Re: Wormi]
#21012005 - 12/22/14 12:23 PM (9 years, 4 months ago) |
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Thanks myco and wormi for the long explenations. I read both and its allot easisr to understand with boths you twos imput combined.
Still wondering about the fruiting area size compared to deeper spawn. Im sure everyone has there own opinion. So i dont think there is an exact amswer.
I get that its faster to break myceium up but what if you dont like violent mentioned. Do you get better results?
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elasticaltiger
Like Tigers in Coitus




Registered: 06/24/13
Posts: 8,438
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Re: Im serius this time [Re: Wormi]
#21012021 - 12/22/14 12:29 PM (9 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Wormi said: Are you comparing the BE of the bottle vs the BE of bulk?
Isnt bulk going to naturally produce better BE because of the more fruits you get to the weight of the sub?
also to answer your question, we spawn to grain because the environment is easier to control.
If you spawn straight to pasteurized 50/50, tams will take over before your spores germinate. Also, there are extremely few inoculation points.
when you spawn to grain, you are able to set up an environment for success, for the myc to thrive. Then when it is fully colonized, you can introduce it to a substrate. It will spread much faster due to the bunches of inoculation points. Also, since the myc has already colonized it will take over the sub before contaminants set in.
I'm sure it was said above. Just my 2c
I'm not sure you fully know what 'spawn' is. Spawn is the colonized grains we use. When you inject your spores onto grains that's not spawning, that's inoculation and germination.
But everything else you said is right.
However I will say that lower spawn ratio's with fewer inoculation points can be beneficial.
-------------------- First time growing cakes? DON'T make a Shotgun Fruiting Chamber The Shmuvbox. - The Old TC's Like it Afraid to Start Growing From Your Own Prints? Drop it Like a Tiger! No Pouring. No Syringes. No Cutting. No flaming. No Contamination. No Bullshit. "The best thing to do while your waiting is to start more stuff. I usually got so much happening that I have tossed projects simply because I didn't have time for them. -Pastywhite QFT Pastywhite's Easy Agar Tek (PastyPlates) Tiger Drop Video Demos By munchauzen Van Gogh would’ve sold more than one painting if he’d put tigers in them.―Bill Watterson EZEKIEL 23:20
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Mushroom_J
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Re: Im serius this time [Re: DEJ]
#21012033 - 12/22/14 12:33 PM (9 years, 4 months ago) |
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Part of spawning to bulk...it to provide an ample amount of water for growth. The sub is food but it's also a reservoir.
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elasticaltiger
Like Tigers in Coitus




Registered: 06/24/13
Posts: 8,438
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Also, bulk growing in monotubs hardly EVER reaches appropriate BE. At least not in my experience.
If I wanted good BE I would fruit grains directly for the sake of easy measuring.
Spawning to bulk tubs does give you 'more shrooms' faster but your over-all BE goes down because you've added a few pounds of substrate to the mix.
-------------------- First time growing cakes? DON'T make a Shotgun Fruiting Chamber The Shmuvbox. - The Old TC's Like it Afraid to Start Growing From Your Own Prints? Drop it Like a Tiger! No Pouring. No Syringes. No Cutting. No flaming. No Contamination. No Bullshit. "The best thing to do while your waiting is to start more stuff. I usually got so much happening that I have tossed projects simply because I didn't have time for them. -Pastywhite QFT Pastywhite's Easy Agar Tek (PastyPlates) Tiger Drop Video Demos By munchauzen Van Gogh would’ve sold more than one painting if he’d put tigers in them.―Bill Watterson EZEKIEL 23:20
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FreeWorldOrder


Registered: 12/24/13
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Re: Im serius this time [Re: DEJ]
#21012071 - 12/22/14 12:45 PM (9 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
DEJ said: Still wondering about the fruiting area size compared to deeper spawn.
I think maybe you mean deeper substrate?
Just trying to help you out with the terminology so you don't get mixed up when reading the replies...
-------------------- "They who can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin Lets Grow Mushrooms Videos PastyWhyte's Easy Agar TEK Agar's Liquid Inoculant TEK
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mycomattie


Registered: 11/15/12
Posts: 1,323
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With the sclerotia producing Psilocybes - fruiting straight cased grains works pretty well, I don't see much of a difference in fruit size versus spawning to bulk.
tampanensis
 
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Pastywhyte
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Re: Im serius this time [Re: Wormi]
#21012088 - 12/22/14 12:51 PM (9 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Violet said:
Quote:
Pastywhyte said: I have a hunch that they are the equal if not better than spawning.
Your theory on this? Let me guess - not destroying the original colony on the grains? ;]
Ummm yeah. Ya got me 
Quote:
Wormi said: Are you comparing the BE of the bottle vs the BE of bulk?
Isnt bulk going to naturally produce better BE because of the more fruits you get to the weight of the sub?
Bio efficiency is the fresh weight compared to the dry weight of the sub. Its a means to compare the effectiveness of cultures substrates and fruiting methods. You can't compare the weight of a first flush of a mono to the first flush of a bottle cause the mono has 20 times more substrate in it. But if I figure out the BE I can say which is more or less effective.
For example I am getting over half a zip dry per bottle first flush. Lets say that I'm just getting a half even for simplicity. If a 66 quart tub has 6 quarts of spawn and 12 quarts of sub that would be similar to 18 bottles. With the culture i am using that means that given the materials I am using I am getting the equivalent of 9 dry zips first flush in a mono. I am happy with that. This is an oversimplifycation of course but you get the idea.
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