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InvisibleJohnny Dont
500 Don'ts of Knife Safety


Registered: 04/24/14
Posts: 1,830
grafting troubles
    #20995504 - 12/18/14 06:11 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

so my first attempt, im pretty sure it just didnt take, shriveled up inside the humidity tent and was barely attached, and then i touched it and it fell off.... which i shouldnt of done. look dont touch.

second one seemed much more promising, it spent 6 days inside the humidity tent, and then when i took it out, it shriveled up in 24hours....

so i imagine, that was because it was a seedling only a few weeks old still baged up in its tray when i grafted it, i should of let it adjust to lower humidity before just setting it out. right?

i just did 2 more, and would really love to see these guys grow up, instead of me killing them

and these are lw onto pereskiopsis


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I have left life and loves behind me, to be blown about as the sea desires, to have the freedom of the open air, and to be witness to the making of the world.

Edited by Johnny Dont (12/18/14 06:14 PM)

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Invisiblekarode13Facebook
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Re: grafting troubles [Re: Johnny Dont]
    #20995547 - 12/18/14 06:18 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Sounds like the first one didn't make a successful union and shriveled up. Second one may of been taken out of humidity too quickly. You should see a visible scab at the graft join before taking out of humidity, this provides a seal that prevents the scion drying out.

I allow 10 days for seedling to pereskiopsis grafts to make a good union before taking out of humidity. I only use the 'glad wrap/saran wrap tek' though. It's basically an idiot proof method I developed from other similar ways but using common household items. Not sure if you're using this method or just a humidity chamber.

And don't worry too much about it. You learn more from failure than you do success. Grafting takes a little practice, don't give up because you'll figure it out.


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InvisibleJohnny Dont
500 Don'ts of Knife Safety


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Re: grafting troubles [Re: karode13]
    #20996053 - 12/18/14 07:54 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

thanks for the advice and encouragement.

it's a humidity chamber, if that makes any diffrence


--------------------
I have left life and loves behind me, to be blown about as the sea desires, to have the freedom of the open air, and to be witness to the making of the world.

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Offlineislanduniverse
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Re: grafting troubles [Re: Johnny Dont]
    #20996176 - 12/18/14 08:17 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

its possible to just place scion on pere stock in high humidity but it must stay there for a long while

for the shape of lw its easier to use parafilm or saran wrap and secure them nicely and humidity chamber is not needed

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InvisibleJohnny Dont
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Registered: 04/24/14
Posts: 1,830
Re: grafting troubles [Re: islanduniverse]
    #20996616 - 12/18/14 09:48 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

so you prefer to use saranwrap over a humidity chamber?

why would it take longer to be ready to exposure in a humidity chamber than when only covered w/ saranwrap?


--------------------
I have left life and loves behind me, to be blown about as the sea desires, to have the freedom of the open air, and to be witness to the making of the world.

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InvisiblecowsRmeat
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Re: grafting troubles [Re: islanduniverse]
    #20997049 - 12/18/14 11:55 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Now I'm curious about this too, as I think I see some grafting in my future, potentially.
Quote:

karode13 said:
I only use the 'glad wrap/saran wrap tek' though. It's basically an idiot proof method I developd from other similar ways but using common household items. Not sure if you're using this method or just a humidity chamber.





Karode, can you elaborate on your method you developed?


Quote:

islanduniverse said:
its possible to just place scion on pere stock in high humidity but it must stay there for a long while

for the shape of lw its easier to use parafilm or saran wrap and secure them nicely and humidity chamber is not needed




How exactly is this method done? Is it the same as karodes? Are you just wrapping the union of stock and scion or is the entire scion wrapped with wrap???


--------------------
One day Alice came to a fork in the road and saw a Cheshire cat in a tree.
'Which road do I take?' she asked.
'Where do you want to go?' was his response.
'I don't know', Alice answered.
'Then', said the cat, 'it doesn't matter.'




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Invisiblekarode13Facebook
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Re: grafting troubles [Re: cowsRmeat] * 2
    #20999586 - 12/19/14 04:31 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Sure thing cowsRmeat. Here's a quote from the grafting techniques thread of the tek>>thread link. Since using this method I haven't lost one graft. Just ask if you have  any specific questions.:

Quote:

karode13 said:
Compiling my quotes on cling film tek from previous threads


Quote:

karode13 said:



I also took some pictures of how I set up the saran wrap for pereskiopsis grafting:


Cut a square approximately 5x5cm or 2x2inches:



Use the end of a sharpie marker or equivalent to mold a cone-like shape that will slip over the Pereskiopsis:




What it looks like:



Now you remove a good portion of the leaves to accommodate the cone you've made, otherwise it wont fit. Light got shitty for pictures but here's a one anyway to reference:




Now that the pereskiopsis is prepared you're now ready to graft. Cut the tip off the rootstock and fit the scion you plan on grafting to the top.

Now remove your wrap cap from the marker and be careful to retain its shape. It should have a nice domed area, with no scrunching, which will fit over the scion. Slip this over the top and down the sides of the Pereskiopsis, if the shape is retained it shouldn't get caught on the pereskiopsis spines.

Once fitted pull down on the cap ends, putting pressure on the scion and then push the excess wrap against the pereskiopsis keeping pressure so it fixes itself to the spines and glochids. Don't be a pussy, they're only glochids.
If it doesn't look right you can adjust the wrap until it does. The main point of this is to keep the scion firmly attached to the stock until the graft heals. I usually unwrap in 5-7 days.







Quote:

karode13 said:


Grafting tools sterilised and ready to go. I'm still using cling film/Glad wrap. Why fix what's not broken. Still getting 99% success using this material. I may experiment with parafilm but I'm really lazy so probably wont:




After:






On a side note, this is a bit of a Tek on the blades I use for pereskiopsis grafting for seedlings. On larger grafts I use box cutter style knives.

Those double sided razors are expensive and the disposable single bladed Bic shavers are very cheap, like $3Au for 10 compared to $18 for the double sided ones. You can do a handful of grafts with them and then throw them away. Anyway here's a pictorial, for those who care.

The razors and a knife for prying open the shaver:




There's a gap between the plastic strip holding the blade against the head. Work your blade in between this and start prying carefully. Best to push away from yourself in case you slip, this will prevent you possibly causing Emo scars on your wrists.




There's about 4 plastic welds to break and then the top plastic strip should fling off(probably a wise idea to wear glasses until you get the hang of it). After this you can pry the blade from the razor head.




You now have a very sharp, cheap cutting tool. Remember to sterilise before use:





They're also very flexible and are great for scraping various substances from pyrex dishes. Can take a bit of practice(and a few cuts) to get the hang of it, but once mastered they're a very handy tool.












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InvisiblecowsRmeat
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Re: grafting troubles [Re: karode13]
    #21000739 - 12/19/14 09:04 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

:amusedapplause:

Awesome! Thanks for posting that! After my last post, I started expexting a UTFSE reply,  thinking that you had probably posted a tek.

Cant wait to try this out for myself! Come springtime, I plan on getting me some peres.


--------------------
One day Alice came to a fork in the road and saw a Cheshire cat in a tree.
'Which road do I take?' she asked.
'Where do you want to go?' was his response.
'I don't know', Alice answered.
'Then', said the cat, 'it doesn't matter.'




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InvisibleJohnny Dont
500 Don'ts of Knife Safety


Registered: 04/24/14
Posts: 1,830
Re: grafting troubles [Re: cowsRmeat]
    #21002512 - 12/20/14 10:15 AM (9 years, 4 months ago)

not one graft lost, thats pretty amazing

question, how far down on the pereskiopsis do you need to pull the saran wrap down? an inch (2.5cm), is that enough

i didnt follow this tek because i didnt want to cut off any leave on the pere, but if the success rate is higher, well then i guess they will just have to loose some leaves.


--------------------
I have left life and loves behind me, to be blown about as the sea desires, to have the freedom of the open air, and to be witness to the making of the world.

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Invisiblekarode13Facebook
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Re: grafting troubles [Re: Johnny Dont]
    #21003512 - 12/20/14 02:51 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Not really 100%. I've lost 2 I think, definitely 1 that I can recall. It's more around 98-99%.

You want the cling wrap overlapping about 2.5cm on each side, the main thing is to make sure the ends are closed enough to provide a humid environment while also maintaining a little pressure.


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Offlineintelligentlife
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Re: grafting troubles [Re: karode13] * 1
    #21004169 - 12/20/14 05:16 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

I don't know how you can fail with humidity, are you sure you don't touch the scions? I have always succeed. But my humidity dome have always holes, always.. They are easier to adjust to dry air. Because of my injuries at hand, I'm not so accurate to add cling wrap so I just plant scion to stock and they do ok, always.. I just never move them for several days, nor touch the scions because there are chance they will move.. It's pointless to disturb attaching  scion By testing it in day or two and may ruin the connection.

Don't know how you have failed tho..:shrug:

I have succeed without failures and only you need is:
-Sterile knife
-Pereskiopsis
-Scion seedling
-Humid chamber
-Alcohol to clean your blade

What comes to my own failures when I learning pereskiopsis, and I failed lots: First I pushed the scion with my finger to see is it attached and so on.. DO NOT even think about touching the scion for one or two week and forget it. After I stop "sticking" the scion By "testing" is it attached, those failures disappear.

Main rule is; Do the graft, forget it and DON'T touch the scion inside one or two weeks, you may accidentally move it and fail graft. Offshoots of pereskiopsis should be cut off but don't touch the scion, otherwise in 3-5days you can move the pot, but don't touch scion even you wanted to "feel how it does" ..it's just increase chance of failures if you "picking" the scion because it just cause harm, no need to do it, just use you eyes, don't touch scion..

Basically I just cut pereskiopsis, then I plant seedling above the cut and move those in humidity chamber for few days. Grafts success always. I've done it to scions old only few days to few months. Using some extra heating for them as well 12/12 cycle on/off.

I move my grafts inside "mini-greenhouse" with moist soil to stock plants(to create humidity)


After 3 days of planting astrophytum asterias v. superkabuto scions without pressure. You can see pereskiopsis pushing offshoot, I removed it after I noticed it from picture, lol :lol:

These have been now about week in humidity, I usually move them away when I see growth. And same time I work to get rid those fast growing offshoots from pereskiopsis to gourage all energy or stock in to scion. These offshoots may fail your graft since stock use energy to grow offshoots instead of scion. And offshoots will come in day or two after cut. Just cut them off and keep them inside chamber till you see growth of scion, usually in 10-15days. If you see long offshoot of pereskiopsis growing, cut it off asap. It may cause scion to "burst" in to grow. Depends how long offshoot(s) have used the energy of stock. I've taken myself grafts in few days to dry air, not failed but it doesn't matter they are in humid chamber enough time to you see actual growth of scion.. Then you can acclimatize graft to normal air. Cool air helps acclimatize those grafts btw, hot air means always lower humidity and sudden humidity drop may fail the graft. Even with this I use changin temperatures, cool and humid night with hot days, without humid chamber cool night time means plant receive humidity on it's own. In nature humidity always rise when air cools, as well as humidity decrease when temperature rises.

I don't say using cling film is bad tek, but if it's purpose is humidity, you can just keep graft in humid. With my tek speed is the key and later on you should make sure scion don't move, usually seedling is easy to leave above stock plant cut and check under the dome after few days.

I've done lots of grafts via this way, never used pressure and all scions so far have attached. I have actually shitloads of degrafted about 1inch peyote buttons atm growing roots as degrafted cuttings, some of them is only few months old.

With trichocereus or other similar stock plants, I don't use humidity. I just work fast and sometimes use superglue to prevent scion not moving. With other stocks I use pressure, but not humidity.

And heating those miniature greenhouses below causes moisture in soil turn more easier to humidity under the dome. But in general humidity will rise, no matter how you increase heat of chamber.

You can use all kind of plastic humid chambers for pereskopsis grafts. Smooth cuts will do the job and scions will attach. Pereskiopsis offshoot growing should be controlled from very early to increase growth of scion. I cut all new offshoots from pereskiopsis off because they slow down the growth of scion.

I haven't even use sharp tools, only "sharp enough" kitchen knife and isopropyl alcohol to make the blade clean. First I cut pereskiopsis, then seedling and plant it above cut and move inside humidity chamber. You can use any light penetrating plastic material to create humidity chamber. Offshoot may start grow in few days so just cut them off when you spot them.

I thin pressure increase the chance of success, but with persekiopsis and seedling, seems humidity is more important, with cling wrap or with humid chamber. Both works. Except I've failed by using cling wrap so that's reson I don't use it.

Anyways, both tek works as well.

Some pics from grafts done without pressure inside humid chamber:


Revoved from pereskiopsis and rooted, growing under lights over winter:


This I haven't remove yet... I suspect it's variegate of some sort, odd color patters at skin I've not seen before, opinions?

Edited by intelligentlife (12/20/14 05:46 PM)

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InvisibleJohnny Dont
500 Don'ts of Knife Safety


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Re: grafting troubles [Re: intelligentlife]
    #21004640 - 12/20/14 07:03 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

how i failed

a) these are my first attempts ever, im sure most people make mistakes the fist couple of times.

b) i did touch the first one, stupid i know.

c) im pretty sure i took the second one out of the humidity chamber to soon. i was told by you, in another thread to wait till i could see the pere calloused, and that i didnt need to wait to see growth. well it probably wasnt really calloused, it had been in the chamber for 6days and i though that would be good... but it shriveled up over night, when it was taken out. it is hard to see what your looking for when your not sure what it looks like.

live and learn,

on a positive note, I think ive learned my lesson, and know what I'm looking for a little better now.

thanks again for all the help


--------------------
I have left life and loves behind me, to be blown about as the sea desires, to have the freedom of the open air, and to be witness to the making of the world.

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Offlinekactus.brand.g
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Re: grafting troubles [Re: Johnny Dont]
    #21004735 - 12/20/14 07:26 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Some pics from grafts done without pressure inside humid chamber:


Revoved from pereskiopsis and rooted, growing under lights over winter:


This I haven't remove yet... I suspect it's variegate of some sort, odd color patters at skin I've not seen before, opinions?






I've got an opinion:mindblown:
Also,that last one does look quite peculiar,it's unlike any of the others you've pictured,and is quite striking:yesnod:

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Offlineintelligentlife
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Re: grafting troubles [Re: Johnny Dont]
    #21006138 - 12/21/14 02:25 AM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Johnny Dont said:
how i failed

a) these are my first attempts ever, im sure most people make mistakes the fist couple of times.

b) i did touch the first one, stupid i know.

c) im pretty sure i took the second one out of the humidity chamber to soon. i was told by you, in another thread to wait till i could see the pere calloused, and that i didnt need to wait to see growth. well it probably wasnt really calloused, it had been in the chamber for 6days and i though that would be good... but it shriveled up over night, when it was taken out. it is hard to see what your looking for when your not sure what it looks like.

live and learn,

on a positive note, I think ive learned my lesson, and know what I'm looking for a little better now.

thanks again for all the help




Do you have anykind of holes in your humid chamber?? (imo air circulation is very important, almost critical to do easier acclimatizing, in cold climate areas especially)

Didn't meant to post to offend you, anyway, I have success By taking grafts off in few days. But I have never full-seal environment chamber..

And I wrote about, I've done lots of mistakes till I find out my tek to graft.

You just need to fail to know "do not do this" :eskimokiss:

Maybe your second graft was moved too early away, or it wasn't even attached properly to pereskiopsis.

More diameter pereskiopsis stock have, easier it is to success as well. (just find that as well when grafting btw)

Second graft shrinking doesn't necessary mean it's moved out too early if connection isn't good. But full-sealed humidity chamber is harder to get acclimatize grafts to dry air.


--------------------

Edited by intelligentlife (12/21/14 02:34 AM)

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OfflineRiparianZoneJunky
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Re: grafting troubles [Re: intelligentlife]
    #21006930 - 12/21/14 10:04 AM (9 years, 4 months ago)

I've noticed that the pereskiopsis need to be healthy and growing, if it's winter and they're under the lights and have slowed down growth due to low room temps and artificial light, it's not time to graft.  I get to a certain point where I need to wait for spring time to put the peres outside and get them growing like weeds again, but that's just because my winter temps and lights are less than ideal.  You also need to use the right thickness/consistency of pereskiopsis, if the diameter is to small (too close to growing tip) you'll have poor growth and a higher fail rate, but if the stock is too woody and mature (it will appear dry/no slime when cut and be very tough to cut through) the scion will not attach properly.  However, if your peres are healthy and growing well and you cut at the right part of the plant, you should have no problem with grafts so long as you use a humidity tent.  For seedlings, just stick them on, for pups or yearlings I put a dab of super glue to hold them on. 

I use solo cups with drainage holes for pots, then cut off the bottom of a 1L soda bottle and it nests perfectly inside the solo cup to create a humidity dome.  I find that with cling wrap or parafilm it makes it super easy to knock off the scion or pull it off if you remove the wrap too soon.  You're also more likely to get a bacterial infection with that little air flow to the scion.  All in all, you should experiment and find a method that works with your working style and conditions, everybody does things slightly differently and what works for me may not be best for you.  :grin:


--------------------
RZJ's Tea Tek
RZJ's Tradelist

Edited by RiparianZoneJunky (12/21/14 10:06 AM)

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InvisibleJohnny Dont
500 Don'ts of Knife Safety


Registered: 04/24/14
Posts: 1,830
Re: grafting troubles [Re: intelligentlife]
    #21007013 - 12/21/14 10:29 AM (9 years, 4 months ago)

i wasnt offended, no worries. i was just tryn to point out what i did wrong. im greatfull for all the help and one day when i get this down ill have a nice collection like you il.

my chamber is this thing i bought that goes over seedling trays, there is a gap between the tray, and the pots, so there is some gapes and wholes.

my climate is super dry, the high desert.  so i need to figure out how much of this dry air is too much for proper grafting.

it is a learning curve

my peres are in 4.5cm pot, siting inside of a try for bottome watering. they are under 2 four foot 32wat flouros. so it is about 16wats per sq ft. although the tray is only 10inches by two feet. the top of the pots are a 30cm from the lights. being feed 600ppm for n.

i am easly getting and inch of week of growth. so they are growing.


--------------------
I have left life and loves behind me, to be blown about as the sea desires, to have the freedom of the open air, and to be witness to the making of the world.

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OfflineRiparianZoneJunky
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Re: grafting troubles [Re: Johnny Dont]
    #21007091 - 12/21/14 10:52 AM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Johnny Dont said:
i wasnt offended, no worries. i was just tryn to point out what i did wrong. im greatfull for all the help and one day when i get this down ill have a nice collection like you il.

my chamber is this thing i bought that goes over seedling trays, there is a gap between the tray, and the pots, so there is some gapes and wholes.

my climate is super dry, the high desert.  so i need to figure out how much of this dry air is too much for proper grafting.

it is a learning curve

my peres are in 4.5cm pot, siting inside of a try for bottome watering. they are under 2 four foot 32wat flouros. so it is about 16wats per sq ft. although the tray is only 10inches by two feet. the top of the pots are a 30cm from the lights. being feed 600ppm for n.

i am easly getting and inch of week of growth. so they are growing.




I judge whether they're good for grafting or not by leaf size, if your leaves are a good 2-3" long and 3/4" wide, you're good to go, if your leaves are more like 1/4-1/2" wide and 3/4" long the stock is probably etiolated and you'll have a hard time grafting.  My house gets really dry in the winter so I find individual domes work better than trying to keep the whole grow area humid.


--------------------
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RZJ's Tradelist

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