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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Nothing can exeed the speed of light. [Re: ummikko]
    #2104041 - 11/14/03 12:53 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Think about this: If you point a flashlight in one direction and another flashlight 180 degrees from the first one, and look at the situation from the perspective of a light particle emitted from the first flashlight, then a light particle emitted from the second flash light would travelling at 2X the speed of light. Still, the particle is travelling from its source at the speed of light.

No, from the point of view of a light particle emitted from flashlight1 the particles from flashlight2 are moving away at the speed of light.

Relativity and light-speed velocities completely change the physics of low-speed reality.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Nothing can exeed the speed of light. [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #2104702 - 11/14/03 04:00 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Actually the balls couldn't move any faster than the speed of sound in whatever material the balls were made of.


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Offlinemntlfngrs
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Re: Nothing can exeed the speed of light. [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2104803 - 11/14/03 04:41 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

eh? sound? in space?


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Nothing can exeed the speed of light. [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #2104827 - 11/14/03 04:50 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Now make the tube 1 light year long and filled with spheres.




The spheres are made of matter I presume. If they are iron balls, then the wave would travel down it at the speed of sound in iron.


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Offlinemntlfngrs
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Re: Nothing can exeed the speed of light. [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2104875 - 11/14/03 05:07 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I don't seee what sound has to do with it. Energy is not bound by sound in any was. Light is energy that is a wave (sometimes anyway) and it traveles at the speed of light.


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InvisibleRunDMT
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Re: Nothing can exeed the speed of light. [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #2104879 - 11/14/03 05:08 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Stop the bickering. I already owned this discussion with the Speed of Thought theory. :wink:


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InvisibleJoshua
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Re: Nothing can exeed the speed of light. [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #2104885 - 11/14/03 05:10 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

It breaks down when you want it to. You decide what reality you live in.

If you like to read, this article has some good references that will help you to break free from this idea.

http://www.aei-potsdam.mpg.de/~mpoessel/Physik/FTL/tunnelingftl.html

Joshua


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Offlineummikko
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Re: Nothing can exeed the speed of light. [Re: trendal]
    #2105127 - 11/14/03 07:41 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
Think about this: If you point a flashlight in one direction and another flashlight 180 degrees from the first one, and look at the situation from the perspective of a light particle emitted from the first flashlight, then a light particle emitted from the second flash light would travelling at 2X the speed of light. Still, the particle is travelling from its source at the speed of light.

No, from the point of view of a light particle emitted from flashlight1 the particles from flashlight2 are moving away at the speed of light.





I don't get this. As both particles are moving at the speed of light in opposite directions, their distance from each other has to grow at twice the speed of light. If this distance was growing only at the speed of light, then the particle's distance from the flashlight (witch is not moving) would be increasing at half the speed of light, which is impossible because the speed of light in a vacuum is constant.

Am I wrong?


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Nothing can exeed the speed of light. [Re: ummikko]
    #2105135 - 11/14/03 07:53 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

There is an experiment that shows that microwaves can travel faster than the speed of light, though they are unable to explain why. Something to do with quantum tunneling, if I remember correctly. A brass rod, about a foot long, is set on a bench. A microwave transmitter is put on one end of the rod, and a receiver on the other. When high energy microwaves are shot into the rod, some of them come out the other end. If you measure the time it takes for the microwaves to traverse the rod, they have traveled faster than the speed of light in a vacuum.

Also, experiments with quantum entaglement and electron spin have had some interesting results, similiar to the above.

> I don't get this. As both particles are moving at the speed of light in opposite directions, their distance from each other has to grow at twice the speed of light.

It is all about prespective. Depending upon where you view the system from, the results will appear different.

For example, if you are on a train, moving down the tracks, and you toss a ball up in the air and catch it, what path did the ball follow? It went straight up and then back down. But... what if you are standing beside the train watching your friend toss a ball up and catch it... because the train is moving, the ball will take a curved path, up and down as it moves forward.


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OfflineAnnomM
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Re: Nothing can exeed the speed of light. [Re: Seuss]
    #2105190 - 11/14/03 08:40 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

There is an experiment that shows that microwaves can travel faster than the speed of light, though they are unable to explain why. Something to do with quantum tunneling, if I remember correctly. A brass rod, about a foot long, is set on a bench. A microwave transmitter is put on one end of the rod, and a receiver on the other. When high energy microwaves are shot into the rod, some of them come out the other end. If you measure the time it takes for the microwaves to traverse the rod, they have traveled faster than the speed of light in a vacuum.



That's correct, but few scientists accept this and it has never reproduced(correct me if I'm wrong)

ummikko, read something about Einstein and relativity. It's not easy to understand and it's not "logical". ( http://www.astronomynotes.com/relativity/s1.htm http://einstein.stanford.edu/content/education/EducatorsGuide/Frame.html )


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OfflineAnnomM
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Re: Nothing can exeed the speed of light. [Re: Annom]
    #2105200 - 11/14/03 08:50 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Special Edition of Scientific American: The edge of physics
Special Edition of Scientific American: Time

^^^^ Very interesting to read! You need to know something about science and physics because it's not easy.


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OfflineAnnomM
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Re: Nothing can exeed the speed of light. [Re: Annom]
    #2105209 - 11/14/03 08:56 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

> The spheres are made of matter I presume. If they are iron balls, then the wave would travel down it at the speed of sound in iron.

True! :smile: the speed of sound in iron is totally different from the speed of sound in air. Very good comparison :thumbup: 


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Offlineeve69
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Re: Nothing can exeed the speed of light. [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #2105237 - 11/14/03 09:14 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

mntlfngrs said:
So someone please explain where this scenario breaks down...

Imagine a tube with spheres filling it up. When you put a sphere in one end one falls out the other side. This happens simultaneously because there is only so much space inside the tube. Now make the tube 1 light year long and filled with spheres. When I put one sphere in one side, a sphere falls out the other side at the same time right? The sphere did not travel the distance but the information that a sphere was pushed into the tube at the other end was transmitted instantly.

Where does this break down?

I just thought of what the problem is but I'm curious to see the responses. If there are any.







This is like that infinite hotel analogy where the infinity of rooms are all booked and yet a new guest arrives. Where do you place him?


Anyway, theories of light are always changing. There's one now that light may be slowing down since the BB.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Nothing can exeed the speed of light. [Re: eve69]
    #2105246 - 11/14/03 09:22 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

> That's correct, but few scientists accept this and it has never reproduced(correct me if I'm wrong)

It is very easy to reproduce the results. The problem/debate is that what gets through is nondeterministic... is this information, or noise. You can pass a modulated wave through the rod and can hear music when you demodulate it, but it sounds like an old scratchy record.


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Offlinemntlfngrs
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Re: Nothing can exeed the speed of light. [Re: Seuss]
    #2105253 - 11/14/03 09:25 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Who cares how it sounds as long as you can determin a 1 or 0 from it. And if you can pass anything then that shouldn't be a problem.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Nothing can exeed the speed of light. [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #2105310 - 11/14/03 09:48 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

> Who cares how it sounds as long as you can determin a 1 or 0 from it.

Because scratchy sound is indicative of information loss. You can determine a 1 or a 0, but not every time.

Further references:

http://www.nature.com/nsu/000601/000601-5.html
http://focus.aps.org/story/v5/st23
http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/abs_free.jsp?arNumber=250129
http://www.physics.berkeley.edu/research/chiao/research.html




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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: Nothing can exceed the speed of light. [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2105507 - 11/14/03 10:50 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Lightningfractal said:
Now consider this, what would happen if a spaceship traveling at 10,000 miles per hour turns on its "headlights"? Would the light emitted by these headlights be traveling at the speed of light relative to the ship? And if so, wouldn't that light be traveling at a rate of speed equal to the speed of light plus 10,000 miles per hour relative to a stationary observer?




No, but the color of the emitted light would change depending on the standpoint of the observer.
Light behaves as a wave, same as sound. Thus the Doppler shift comes into effect in this case.
http://zebu.uoregon.edu/~soper/Light/doppler.html
http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr162/lect/light/doppler.html



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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Nothing can exeed the speed of light. [Re: ummikko]
    #2105677 - 11/14/03 12:06 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I don't get this. As both particles are moving at the speed of light in opposite directions, their distance from each other has to grow at twice the speed of light. If this distance was growing only at the speed of light, then the particle's distance from the flashlight (witch is not moving) would be increasing at half the speed of light, which is impossible because the speed of light in a vacuum is constant.

At near light-speed velocities, spacetime appears warped significantly. Most people are familiar with Time Dilation involved with near-lightspeed travel: that time slows down to an eventual halt at the speed of light. There is also a mass increase and a contraction in the length dimension (Lorentz contractions, if I remember correctly).

This is the essence of Relativity. Your thought is actually the same thought that led Einstein to his discovery of Spetial Relativity. He Thought about what it would be like to travel along side a wave of light, and how the wave would appear if one were to travel beside it at the speed of light.

What he eventually realized is that no matter how fast you travel, the wave of light still moves by you at the speed of light.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Nothing can exeed the speed of light. [Re: trendal]
    #2108663 - 11/15/03 09:44 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

> (Lorentz contractions, if I remember correctly)

You do.


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