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fuzzysig
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how do we develop the habits first time?
#20969616 - 12/13/14 12:30 AM (9 years, 5 months ago) |
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I was just thinking about people with bad habits. and how much they struggle trying to change them or get rid of them
it takes so much focus and energy to get rid of them supposedly. but why do we do it so easy when we learn a new habit good or bad the first time. for example a kid learns to do something certain way its seems very natural. but try to teach him a different way and its a disaster
cant we just forget the bad one and learn something good like it was a new thing?
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CosmicJoke
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Re: how do we develop the habits first time? [Re: fuzzysig]
#20969674 - 12/13/14 12:54 AM (9 years, 5 months ago) |
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Maybe bad habits are formed from repetition of actions that either mistakenly lack perceptible consequences or there's a mis-assessment between the comparative advantages and negative consequences. How do you learn good habits, such as being physically fit or parallel parking? Practice them routinely. Maybe there's no difference between bad habits, albeit the lack of realization that you're practicing them.
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
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redgreenvines
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Re: how do we develop the habits first time? [Re: fuzzysig]
#20969701 - 12/13/14 01:06 AM (9 years, 5 months ago) |
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repetition makes habit possible. positive results ensures repetition. the sequence is associatively connected to a "stimulus", and the consecutive parts of the sequence are associatively connected to the parts before and after.
repetition of each part in order makes the sequence smoother and more fully developed as a single routine.
we don't forget what has been repeated very easily, but we can add to the associations.
if we add something and practice (repeat) the addition, it can supplant the previous associative sequence, and mitigate the automatic chain of associations.
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fuzzysig
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Re: how do we develop the habits first time? [Re: CosmicJoke]
#20969702 - 12/13/14 01:07 AM (9 years, 5 months ago) |
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im interested in finding a trigger that turns off that resistance to change. to allow learning something different than what I know
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fuzzysig
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Re: how do we develop the habits first time? [Re: fuzzysig]
#20969710 - 12/13/14 01:12 AM (9 years, 5 months ago) |
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ok lets say I have a habit of getting a coffee every morning. I dot enjoy the fact that im drinking coffee but its a routine. and coffee tastes good.
im well aware of the benefits of stopping the coffee addiction but I ignore it and then suffer every time. yet I don't stop drinking coffee...
instead a morning stretch or short excersise makes me feel great also but its a different feeling and I cant get myself to form a healthy habit instead of drinking coffee.
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CosmicJoke
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Re: how do we develop the habits first time? [Re: fuzzysig] 1
#20969720 - 12/13/14 01:20 AM (9 years, 5 months ago) |
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My best advice is to pick up three alternative habits that you consider good for every one bad one you quit. Your stretching/exercising only counts as one.
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
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redgreenvines
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Re: how do we develop the habits first time? [Re: fuzzysig] 1
#20970014 - 12/13/14 06:14 AM (9 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
fuzzysig said: im interested in finding a trigger that turns off that resistance to change. to allow learning something different than what I know
the resistance to change is an artifact of the habit's integrity, i.e. it is not a real thing, change is possible but not by weakening the habit through a trigger, triggers are what get habit sequences to roll, so the other habit that you want to roll has to be established (by repetition -in advance).
however, to weaken a habit that is already established, and not replace it with a specific alternate habit, there is an approach that underlies psychotherapy and meditation retreats alike:
one practices abiding or sitting by. this is either done with a therapist or alone with understanding that it is a simple wholesome thing. you sit with yourself and remain calm and congenial. like old folk on the porch watching the river flow.
except the river is your consciousness.
when the habit that is not productive becomes triggered arises, you sit with it arising, and you continue to be congenial and calm, sitting by becomes the new habit, so it is important that the practice is continuously aware, congenial, and calm.
in the future, when triggered, both the non-specific calm congeniality (sit with me habit) as well as the knee-jerk habit will arise, and you will be able to select the branch because the alternate is there.
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Jaegar
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Re: how do we develop the habits first time? [Re: redgreenvines]
#20970184 - 12/13/14 08:07 AM (9 years, 5 months ago) |
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I think basically their either the learned through memory or chemical incentive which may very well overlap.
Edited by Jaegar (12/13/14 08:08 AM)
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fuzzysig
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Re: how do we develop the habits first time? [Re: Jaegar]
#20972525 - 12/13/14 07:06 PM (9 years, 5 months ago) |
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I also feel that a lot of this is influenced by media and social conditioning we are consumer nation and consumerism is opposite of self control.
if everyone excersised self control our economy would fail
so I strongly feel that when we try to be better we are not only working against ourselves but also against the culture invented by the companies that need to sell shit to public if general public doesn't spend money then company doesn't make profit...
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Rahz
Alive Again



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Re: how do we develop the habits first time? [Re: fuzzysig]
#20972637 - 12/13/14 07:29 PM (9 years, 5 months ago) |
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It doesn't take repetition to create a future incentive. That happens on the first bite.
Whatever the habit, there is the experience of a reward. So long as the reward for continuing the habit seems greater than stopping or changing, the habit will continue.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace I am I feel I do I love I speak I see I know “Science advances one funeral at a time” ~Max Planck
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EternalCowabunga
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Re: how do we develop the habits first time? [Re: Rahz]
#20972673 - 12/13/14 07:35 PM (9 years, 5 months ago) |
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I feel like I could re-learn a lot of things but i'm just too damn stubborn. I'd rather do it the wrong way but my way rather than learn a new habit. And many times I try and do things a new way I unconsciously return to doing it the old way.
For example, when I hold a fork I hold it with my whole fist. This is how I ate when I was a kid. Someone brought it to my attention and I made a conscious effort to hold a fork like a normal person. However, I would do this for one meal and then unconsciously return to my old way. I did form a habit of realizing my habit and trying to change it, but it was an inconsistent habit so the original habit remains.
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Icelander
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Re: how do we develop the habits first time? [Re: fuzzysig]
#20974596 - 12/14/14 10:00 AM (9 years, 5 months ago) |
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timing. First habits are hardest to break imo.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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redgreenvines
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Re: how do we develop the habits first time? [Re: Icelander]
#20974710 - 12/14/14 10:25 AM (9 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said: It doesn't take repetition to create a future incentive. That happens on the first bite.
Sorry, rahz, but no, yes one bite can be a treat or a snack, but it is no habit. a sequence has to be repeated or it fades and drifts away, repetition glues the associations between the moments of a sequence - the mental contents become facilitated so that anything which appears to be similar will elicit the memory of the sequence.
that never happens with a single shot.
Quote:
Icelander said: timing. First habits are hardest to break imo.
first habits are hardest to break if they have been most repeated, those that have little airplay drift into history.
why did you slip the word timing in? timing is not part of the sequence trigger, though it is integral to the coordination of the pieces or gestures in any habituated routine.
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Rahz
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Re: how do we develop the habits first time? [Re: redgreenvines]
#20974973 - 12/14/14 11:29 AM (9 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Sorry, rahz, but no,
A habit by definition is something done more than twice... but that's not what I said. If somebody does something and they like it, that's all the incentive they need to do it again. If someone does something and there's no reward or no promise of reward, no habit will develop.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace I am I feel I do I love I speak I see I know “Science advances one funeral at a time” ~Max Planck
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Icelander
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Re: how do we develop the habits first time? [Re: redgreenvines]
#20974987 - 12/14/14 11:32 AM (9 years, 5 months ago) |
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Timing. YES! In brain development there are critical phases during childhood. Damage done then is harder to undo and more debilitating for the future. It's also laid down on a mostly blank slate and then yes it will get a lot of repetition.
Tough stuff to deal with and a lot of variables.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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redgreenvines
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Registered: 04/08/04
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Re: how do we develop the habits first time? [Re: Rahz]
#20975196 - 12/14/14 12:27 PM (9 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said:
Quote:
Sorry, rahz, but no,
A habit by definition is something done more than twice... but that's not what I said. If somebody does something and they like it, that's all the incentive they need to do it again. If someone does something and there's no reward or no promise of reward, no habit will develop.
reward is the operant conditioning carrot as in carrot and stick and this is certainly a way of ensuring preferences while habits are forming, but the crux of the habit formation is not in the external control or teacher role, it is in the nature of the mind to be sticky, and in particular to be more sticky with what is repeated.
the habit does not form unless the action is repeated, the externally imposed treat re-inforces the likelihood that the subject would repeat a particular thing, but given the nature of mind, repetition of some kind will definitely happen through the course of living.
after a habit is engrained, replacing it is challenging.
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SEEDofLIFE
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Re: how do we develop the habits first time? [Re: fuzzysig]
#20975487 - 12/14/14 01:51 PM (9 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
fuzzysig said: I also feel that a lot of this is influenced by media and social conditioning we are consumer nation and consumerism is opposite of self control.
if everyone excersised self control our economy would fail
so I strongly feel that when we try to be better we are not only working against ourselves but also against the culture invented by the companies that need to sell shit to public if general public doesn't spend money then company doesn't make profit...
I definitely agree. I wish people would stop addressing themselves as "consumers." Instead lets try CITIZENS. Consumer's don't have moral obligations, they just spend without concern for others (bad habit). I think if we had obligations to society, we would be more self-aware, in a way that wasn't self or environmentally destructive. Self-awareness can only be achieved with another self (human interaction). So if we more were self-aware, strived to be better citizens and truly cared what others thought of us...then I think our bad habits would be less destructive and easier to break.
If we were more aware of the consequences our actions played on ourselves and others, then hopefully our bad habits would just be small faults that we would feel a desire to correct to eventually further the success of our community and our own individual wellness.
-------------------- "We are all in this together."
Edited by SEEDofLIFE (12/14/14 01:58 PM)
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Rahz
Alive Again



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Re: how do we develop the habits first time? [Re: redgreenvines]
#20975607 - 12/14/14 02:20 PM (9 years, 5 months ago) |
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I'm talking egg, you're talking chicken. Preferences are not a choice. The mind is sticky, but not like a piece of tape that will stick to most anything. The formation of a habit starts with the first bite.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace I am I feel I do I love I speak I see I know “Science advances one funeral at a time” ~Max Planck
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redgreenvines
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Registered: 04/08/04
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Re: how do we develop the habits first time? [Re: Rahz]
#20975666 - 12/14/14 02:32 PM (9 years, 5 months ago) |
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like walking, talking, riding a bike? there is more than one bite in getting these routines functional or habitual among the ocean of possible routines.
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saenchai
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Re: how do we develop the habits first time? [Re: Rahz]
#20975742 - 12/14/14 02:52 PM (9 years, 5 months ago) |
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You have to know how to talk to yourself in your brain and keep an awareness of how you relate to that habit at a fundamental level. Your mind has to see more incentive and reward in doing the new habit than repeating old ones or conserving energy. It's like when you hear of smokers that just stop one day and never touch another cigarette compared to people that want to but just can't help but pick one up. It helps to understand what it is exactly that keeps you in the same pattern every day and whether it is just inertia and unconsciousness or whether the habit fills an emotional need that you need to deal with. Knowing how to control and consciously lead your mind is a muscle you can develop that gets easier the more you do it. If all else fails, write a check to a political party or politician that you hate, give it to a friend, tell them to send it if you fail to stop doing xyz habit. All you need is enough incentive in the beginning then the brain will rewire itself after like 30 days to your new habit. You have to literally become a different person with a different identity.
"I really believe that I should stop smoking. I still identify as a smoker though and I associate cigarettes with filling bored moments, getting a break from work, relaxing with my thoughts, drinking, etc." -----this person will expend a lot of energy and willpower "trying" to resist smoking and they will fail.
"I am not a smoker. It is an unpleasant habit and it's killing me slowly. I care more about my health than I do indulging in sucking on chemicals and smoke. When I see cigarettes, I imagine the chemicals and how badly my lungs would get damaged and I feel repulsed by the possibility of doing it." -----this person will stop cold turkey with no energy or willpower needed
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